The MOST GREAT scam of MidEastYouth/MUSLIM NETWORK FOR BAHAI RIGHTS

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

For the past two-and-a-half years the following two related
organizations have been repeatedly touted by members of the Haifan
Bahaim organization as real, independent organizations:

MidEastYouth
http://www.mideastyouth.com

Muslim Network for Bahai Rights
http://www.bahairights.org

In 2007 the Persian language section of the BBC (British Broadcasting
Corporation) - the same outfit who in 1978 and 1979 gave an open
microphone to the Ayatollah Khomeini as just prior to the success of
the Islamic revolution - even ran the following story on the Muslim
Network for Bahai Rights,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/story/2007/07/070719_si-wkf-bahaiedefence.shtml

I had queried an assortment of Baha'is for a year about the structure
of this organization and who specifically served on its steering board
and got patent misdirecting answers, and links to their sites which
mention nothing. However in 2007, the founder Esra’a al-Shafei from
Bahrain had stated in an interview,

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Esra%27a_Al_Shafei
“Esra’a al-Shafei, a blogger from Bahrain, is the co-founder of
http://www.mideastyouth.com and the Middle East Interfaith Blogger
Network. She also runs FreeKareem.org aimed to free a jailed friend
and fellow blogger.”

and

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mideast_Youth
“This is a two-person show, I’m in charge of content management and
the ideas, and my friend Lalith, who runs lazybeelab, is in charge of
design and technical support. He co-owns MidEast Youth and our many
networks. I wouldn’t have come this far without his much needed help,
this is why I put him in charge of executive decisions regarding the
site as well…”
as sourced from here,
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/04/12/arabeyes-esraa-al-shafei-your-one-stop-cyber-activist/

MidEast Youth was a two-man show as of April 2007. As of January 19
2009 two-persons have now quadrupled into the following staff of
eleven full-time individuals:

Esra’a Al Shafei (Bahrain) - Director
Kawthar Muhaib (UAE) - Project assistant
Tamara Al-Om (Syria) - Moderator & General Assistant
Omid T. (Iran/USA) - Moderator & Legal Adviser
Tori Egherman (Iran/USA) - Budget manager/General Lifesaver
Mohammad Memarian (Iran) - Translation Services - Farsi
Nadia Ayadi (Tunisia) - French translations
Elisheva Cohen (Israel) - Director of Public Relations
Leah Lublin (Israel) - Interfaith Manager
Siham Ihouline (Morocco) - Occasional project Translator
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mideast_Youth


Stay tuned, folks, as we begin to reveal here the various funding,
political and Washington-based PAC (political action committee) big-
lobby connections to several of the people mentioned sitting above on
that board. Especially noteworthy, or amusing, here is how you have
two Israelis and one American Jew whose name is eerily similar to a
certain AIPAC (American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee) coordinating
director serving on the board of a network whose immediate subsidiary
is the organization calling its MUSLIM NETWORK FOR BAHA’I RIGHTS.

Can you say ‘WAG THE DOG’ ?

Wahid

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/122/645


Elisheva Cohen
Youth Development and Empowerment
Greater Philadelphia Area
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[Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA, Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada, Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the slayer of fecal stained moslems]

This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

Hey Yaako the Whacko,

How about that President Barack HUSSEIN Obama!


W

On Jan 21, 5:44 am, "Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA,
Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada, Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the

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[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah
Hey Yaako the Whacko,
How about that President Barack HUSSEIN Obama!
W
On Jan 21, 5:44 am, "Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA,
Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada, Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the

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Mr Omid Townsend, Legal Advisor to Mid-East Youth is a Baha'i:

http://www.wiretapmag.org/warandpeace/43308/

"But it's not just a forum for discussion, says Persian-American and
Bahai Omid Townsend, the legal advisor for Mideast Youth. "We are a
medium of change and an outlet for places and people to voice their
opinions in areas where they may otherwise not be able to," he says."

Whilst it is claimed that they fund themselves on very little money,
they have received grants from known conservative 'think tank'
funders, Atlas Economic Research Foundation- a foundation whose
supporters include ExxonMobil and Phillip Morris tobacco (http://
www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Atlas_Economic_Research_Foundation)

(again from http://www.wiretapmag.org/warandpeace/43308/)
"The organization places a lot of importance on its ability to remain
independent. The staff funds itself on very little money, which comes
from staff members themselves, reader donations and online
advertisements. In May 2007, Mideast Youth received a $5,000 award
from the Atlas Economic Research Foundation for "New Intellectual
Entrepreneurship Project." The staff used the prize money to add a
gallery, petition system and a video site to its online endeavors."

Regarding Atals Economic Research Foundation. Note well, its founders
so called "lifelong campaign" to combat "creeping socialism".

http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/2004Q3/atlas.html


Briton Antony Fisher founded Atlas as part of his lifelong campaign to
influence the "climate of ideas" and combat "creeping socialism."
Atlas credits Fisher with assisting in the early stages of development
of several conservative think tanks, including the Manhattan
Institute, Pacific Research Institute in San Francisco and Fraser
Institute in Vancouver, Canada.

Atlas identifies, screens and offers initial support to individuals
and groups who want to create local think tanks. "Our ideal
'intellectual entrepreneur,'" says Atlas, is "someone who communicates
effectively with businessmen, academicians and the general public." By
facilitating the establishment of local think tanks, Atlas increases
both the reach and local credibility of their "free market" message,
thereby having "the most cost-effective impact."

"Since its formation in 1981, Atlas has funnelled over $20 million in
grants to think tanks that have passed its screening process. Atlas
aims, it says, to "increase that amount tenfold in the next decade."
In 2003, a little over $2 million of Atlas's budget was passed on to
other think tanks. While large conservative foundations often make
sizable, sustained and general support grants, Atlas believes less is
more, giving small grants of $5,000 or less. Atlas then weans
fledgling projects off this modest annual funding within five years,
making exception only for specific innovative projects."

See also http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Atlas_Economic_Research_Foundation

Known corporate donors include ExxonMobil, which according to the
Greenpeace website ExxonSecrets.org., has contributed over $500,000
since 1998. Exxon itself discloses contributions of $65,000 in 1998
(then Exxon) [3] and $50,000 during 2002. [4]

In a May 1998 fundraising pitch to tobacco giant Phillip Morris,
Chaufen explained that keeping its think tanks off the dole of
political parties, universities, government agencies and lobbies
"helps keep their ideas and recommendations untainted by real or
perceived political or organizational ties" and "helps protect them
and us against potential scandal. Think tanks tied to politicians and
parties can easily become instruments of corruption. Indeed, in
several instances, public officials have enriched themselves and their
allies through the 'think tanks' they control," Chaufen wrote.[5]

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

Fron another list

-

You were saying before that they are based in Pakistan. When your
claim was proven to be categorically false, you now rehearse a SOB
story about this organization being broke. Let’s look at one of the
board members of the MidEastYouth and their donation record to various
“humanitarian” causes, i.e. Mr Mohammad Memarian,
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:qwkDSvw9hxoJ:www.iman.org/Earth%2520Quake%2520Donations.pdf+%22Mohammad+Memarian%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=au&client=firefox-a

In December 2004 Mr Memarian charged his credit card on one single
transaction donating to an earthquake relief cause to the tune of
$194,200.00 U$D ON A SINGLE DONATION. Lest you miss the point, this
was one single, lump-sum donation to a single charity! The record
shows his other transactions right before it to the same fund as
$56,808.00, $42, 610.00 and on down. Kindly peruse the table for your
edification. This is all public information.

Mr Mohammad Memarian must have some very busy accountants, and he
himself must have some amazing liquidity and assets at his disposal to
be able to afford to throw around money like that. But one thing that
is for darn sure, the MidEastYouth is not remotely tied for cash by
any stretch of the imaginatrion with a board member such as Mr
Mohammad Memarian, let alone to be broke!

Sorry, your SOB story sounds awfully like the kind of misdirecting
institutional-beggary of the uhj back in the 1980s and 1990s when it
continually claimed it was nearly broke for certain projects, like its
temple in India or Arc, when it wasn’t; but went around putting its
hand out squeezing and milking yet more money from its community
anyway. In Persian we call this gedaa’ee/beggary! And what this
organization is doing claiming it is broke and getting individuals to
donate to it when it has Mr Mohammad Memarian sitting on its board, is
exactly that: gedaa’ee/beggary!

As for what MidEastYouth actually does. Frankly, it does nothing that
isn’t already done by others far better and far more genuinely. One
thing that it does do and has done so far is to act as a covert
Zionist propaganda front for various interests that - until this
afternoon Washington EST when Obama took the oath of office - were
hell bent on initiating a war against Iran. I am, of course, referring
to the fraudulent (or, rather, interpolated) statement attributed to
the dissident cleric Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri claiming to
recognize Bahaism which purportedly argued for extending rights
unilaterally to Bahais on the basis of their religion, when he said
nothing remotely of the sort and the records of his website show it.

Now how about that broke MidEastYouth with only $600.00 in its
account! I think I speak for everyone here that if we were each a
charity or some organization, all of us would pray we were strapped
for cash on Mohammad Memarian’s watch!

WAHID

[r***@yahoo.co.uk]

...I am, of course, referring
to the fraudulent (or, rather, interpolated) statement attributed to
the dissident cleric Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri claiming to
recognize Bahaism which purportedly argued for extending rights
unilaterally to Bahais on the basis of their religion, when he said
nothing remotely of the sort and the records of his website show it.

The claim was that Montazeri had said Baha'is were "rightful citizens
of Iran" whose rights as citizens should be respected. Many websites
repeated this claim - such as:
- http://www.iranian.com/main/blog/sadegh/reaction-ayatollah-montazeri-decrees-bahais-rightful-citizens-iran
- http://bahaisonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1765
which published a picture of the actual fatwa
- http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2008/may2008/a-grand-ayatollah-and-an-influencital-journalist-t.shtml

Nowhere, apart from here, have I heard anyone suggest these are
forgeries or misquotes. If they were, don't you think the iranian
press would have braodcast the fact from the rooftops?

Andrew

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

(I didn't and neither have you),

Yes, I have.

I would have
included it.
b) I was not aware of the political / religious links of those sites
(apart from the obvious), although I had my suspicions and wasn't
particularly surprised. What is notable is that the usual anti-Baha'i
sources (Fars, IRNA, ISNA etc) completely ignored the story -

As did a whole slew of other outlets.

if it
was a forgery, as you claim, they would have had it on the front page!

That's a straw man, if there ever was. How many blatant hoaxes are you
aware of that regularly appear for considered or lengthy rebuttal on
the front pages of the New York Times, Wall Street Journal or
Washington Post? A further proof of the fallacy of your argument is
that as a political enemy to the supreme leadership, the regime would
use every opportunity to propagandize against Montazeri with their own
constituency in print - and have EVERY TIME. This has happened on
every instance when there has been a political show-down of words
between Montazeri, Khamenei and other key hardliners. With the
presidency of a hardliner such as Ahmadinejad, where the hands of the
hardliners are completely unfettered, and with a story such as this,
the regime would've capitalized from every conceivable inch and angle
in order to discredit Montazeri further, casting him in the role of a
quisling-plus to the core political values of the revolution and the
Islamic republic. That they didn't, and that the story only appeared
later in the form of diffusing a completely foreign generated hoax, is
solid, irrefutable testimony to the transparent vacuity of the
position you maintain.

c) Sadly I cannot read Persian or Arabic, so Montazeri's site is

not

too much use to me.

Then perhaps you should find someone who can.

d) Thank you for the translation you kindly provided. Reading it
supports my understanding of what he said: Baha'is' rights as citizens
should be respected.

No, it doesn't say that. Here is the nuance of the argument that you
Bahaim are deliberately attempting to misdirect and capitalize upon
for your own political purposes of media aggrandizement in the Western
media, which has several times now blown up in your faces. Montazeri
says that the rights of citizens should be protected, with no
specificity of creed being underscored in this very circumspect and
definite aspect of the argument he is making. He begins by showcasing
his views on Bahaism as having remained exactly the same since the
Islamic revolution. He then moves on to discuss the rights of
citizenry in general, irrespective of creed, only then instancing
Bahais and Bahaism - which he _there_ indicates and argues (against)
with the earlier showcased position of his views he says are the views
he held at the beginning of the Islamic revolution that he began his
argument with. What Montazeri is saying is a lot more nuanced than
stating "Baha'is' rights as citizens should be respected," because
this would imply he is acceding some legal status of recognition to
Bahaism qua Bahaism, which he is at pains to say he is not. He is
arguing the legal and natural rights of the citizen. The Bahai aspect
is an incidental and secondary aspect to it, not the primary rubric of
the argument. Period!

Are you claiming he didn't mean that? Nowhere -
in the text you quoted - does he say his views have been
misinterpreted or any statements of his forged.

On the same website where this statement was made, it was made as a
result of the deceptive and dishonest hoopala you Bahaim attempted to
generate over this manufactured story of yours. The question put him
was unequivocally implying this, and so he answered in a highly
suggestive but usually dignified manner the point you now see before
you -- which by direct implication suggests explicitly that for
Montazeri to even directly address the *issue* of the hoax attributed
to him is beneath his dignity, while you are beneath contempt, since
people ought to know his positions on such things.

e) You said Baha'is were claiming that "Montazeri recognized Bahaism,
argued for extending rights to Bahaism on the basis of their
religion". I never heard or read anyone saying Montazeri had said
this. All I read was the description above - him arguing that Baha'is'
rights as citizens should be respected.

See my argument above.

If you have any evidence of
Baha'is or others misinterpreting his statement, please could you
point me in that direction.

http://groups.google.com.au/group/talk.religion.bahai/browse_thread/thread/63aa82205cce1051/1c19efc21c7dd609?lnk=gst&q=Montazeri+%2B+deception#1c19efc21c7dd609

Wahid Azal

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk

...I am, of course, referring
to the fraudulent (or, rather, interpolated) statement attributed to
the dissident cleric Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri claiming to
recognize Bahaism which purportedly argued for extending rights
unilaterally to Bahais on the basis of their religion, when he said
nothing remotely of the sort and the records of his website show it.

The claim was that Montazeri had said Baha'is were "rightful citizens
of Iran" whose rights as citizens should be respected. Many websites
-http://www.iranian.com/main/blog/sadegh/reaction-ayatollah-montazeri-...
-http://bahaisonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1765
which published a picture of the actual fatwa
-http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2008/may2008/a-grand-a...

EXCEPT his own website stated a far more nuanced position,http://www.amontazeri.com/farsi/default.asp
And it is quite interesting how self-serving are the links you quote
to muddy waters here. So let's break down your gratuitously
'manufactured consent'.www.iranian.comisowned, operated and managed
by a Bahai-friendly political opportunist by the name of Jahanshah
Javid who is a regular receiver of funds for his online sites by
foundations based in Washington DC. Also, about Javid,
Part 1http://iranpoliticsclub.net/politics/shiite-season/jj-hezbollah1/
Part 2http://iranpoliticsclub.net/politics/shiite-season/jj-hezbollah2/
Bahaisonline is owned and operated by Steve Marshall, a Bahai in
Dunedin, New Zealand well-known for his biggotted and racist anti-
Iranian views, and his consistent (and completely unexplainable)
political hostility towards the government of Iran.
Iran-press-service is an outfit funded by conservative anti-Iranian
think-tanks subsidized by monies allocated originally by the US State
Department under the Iran Freedom Act, a rightwing Neo-Con sponsored
congressional resolution specifically targetting "regime change" in
Iran. None of these links you provide are remotely objective as
purported sources of credibility.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Nowhere, apart from here, have I heard anyone suggest these are
forgeries or misquotes.

His website indeed did. You may try his Persian language website, and
also have a look at,
,
In His Name, the Most High!
With salutations and blessings. The opinion of this person (nazar-i-
een jenab) regarding the misled cult of Bahaism (firqe-ye zale-ye
baha’iye) is the same opinion as the one held during the years before
the Revolution, and so has not changed. However [the case of] those
who in most cases are not followers of any of the religions sent by
heaven (adyan-i-asimani) [i.e. Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity
and Islam] are referable to the ruling wisdom of the illustrious
verse, “Allah forbideth thee from dealing unkindly and unjustly with
those who do not fight against thee in the faith nor are ones driving
thee out of thy homes, for Allah loveth those who are just” (Qur’an.
60:8); as well as per the letter of the Commander of the Faithful
[‘Ali] to Malik Ashtar, “You must kindle in thy heart kindness,
compassion and love for thy subjects. Do not behave towards them as
if
you are a voracious and ravenous beast and as if your success lies in
devouring them… they are brothers to you, and those who have a
religion [other than yours], they are human beings like you (The Peak
of Eloquence/Nahju’l-Balagha, Letter 53). [As such] their human
rights
should be respected.
[Now] citizenship rights are also in one particular respect universal
and its limits should [therefore] be specified in that respect on the
basis of the customary [‘or’ canon] law (‘urfi) and the Constitution
[of the Islamic Republic] by the [will of the]  majority of the
people. However if certain persons are [determined in] pursuing [the
path of] enmity against the people of the nation and are abetting
foreign enemies, and if their association [with these foreign
enemies]
be established for the court(s) pursuant to the laws of the nation,
they should be punished according to the law(s). Their citizenship
[rights] (shahrvandi-i-anan) does not impede [or ‘obstruct’] the body
of the law [to act] (mani’ az ajza’-i-qanun nemishavad]. [Yet] it is
also necessary that precautions be taken (lazim ast morraqibat
shavad)
so that the youth of the nation (javanan-i-keshvar) do not become
embroiled in their evil propaganda (tablighat-i-su’-i-anan); and if
such dealings and association with them will only give cause to their
[cultivation and] strength (mu’amileh va mu’asherat mujib-i-
taghviyat-
i-anan shavad), it is essential to disassociate from [‘or’ shun] them
(lazim ast az an ijtinab gardad).
God willing, may your success be assured!
1387/3/25
بسمه تعالی
با سلام و تحیت
نظر این جانب در مورد فرقه ضاله بهائیه همان نظر سالهای قبل از انقلاب
است و تغییری نکرده است . ولی به طور کلی افرادی که تابع هیچ یک از
ادیان
آسمانی نیستند نیز به حکم آیه شریفه : " لا ینهاکم الله عن الذین لم
یقاتلوکم فی الدین و لم یخرجوکم من دیارکم ان تبروهم و تقسطوا الیهم ان
الله یحب المقسطین ". (سوره ممتحنه ، آیه 8) و فرمایش امیرالمومنین علیه
السلام در نامه به مالک اشتر: "واشعر قلبک الرحمة للرعیة والمحبة لهم
واللطف بهم و لا تکونن علیهم سبعا ضاریا تغتنم اکلهم فانهم صنفان : اما
اخ لک فی الدین او نظیر لک فی الخلق " (نهج البلاغة، نامه 53)  باید
حقوق
انسانی آنان رعایت شود.
حقوق شهروندی نیز یک واژه کلی است و حدود آن باید بر اساس عرف و قانون
اساسی مورد پذیرش اکثریت مردم مشخص شود. البته اگر کسانی در صدد دشمنی
با
مردم کشور برآیند و با دشمنان خارجی همکاری نمایند و همکاری آنان مطابق
قوانین کشور برای دادگاه صالح ثابت شود باید طبق قانون مجازات شوند. و
شهروندی آنان مانع از اجراء قانون نمی شود. و لازم است مراقبت شود
جوانان
کشور گرفتار تبلیغات سوء آنان نشوند، و اگر معامله و معاشرت با آنان
موجب
تقویت آنان شود لازم است از آن اجتناب گردد.
ان شاء الله موفق باشید.
1387/3/25- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

[r***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

If I had found a news source that
contradicted these (I didn't and neither have you), I would have
included it.

Yes, I have.

As I'm sure you are aware, there is a difference between assertion and
proof or evidence. As everyone reading this is no doubt aware, if you
had proof, you would have provided it by now.

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

d) Thank you for the translation you kindly provided. Reading it
supports my understanding of what he said: Baha'is' rights as citizens
should be respected.

What Montazeri is saying is a lot more nuanced than
stating "Baha'is' rights as citizens should be respected," because
this would imply he is acceding some legal status of recognition to
Bahaism qua Bahaism, which he is at pains to say he is not.

That doesn't follow at all. Saying Baha'is are citizens and citizens
have certain rights doesn not in any way imply that those rights are
only available to Baha'is or that Bahaism is recognised as a religion.

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah
He is arguing the legal and natural rights of the citizen.

Exactly! I think you're trying to make a difference here which doesn't
exist. Within Islam there is a consensus that Muslims have certain
rights and people of the book have certain rights. There is clearly a
debate regarding the rights of people who don't fit into either
category (and Baha'is are the biggest group of these in Iran). Two
positions are possible: 1) they have no rights or 2) they do have
rights. He is arguing (2) - they do have rights. Of course his
argument applies equally to other religions in this position such as
Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists etc - that is not denied.

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

Nowhere -
in the text you quoted - does he say his views have been
misinterpreted or any statements of his forged.

...for
Montazeri to even directly address the *issue* of the hoax attributed
to him is beneath his dignity..

I see. Thank you for admitting that Ayatollah Montazeri has never
accused the Baha'is of forging the fatwa as you originally claimed.
Perhaps that's because they never did.

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

If you have any evidence of
Baha'is or others misinterpreting his statement, please could you
point me in that direction.

http://groups.google.com.au/group/talk.religion.bahai/browse_thread/t...

It's not really what Wikipedia would call a "reliable source". I had
in mind a news story or press release quoting the Baha'i International
Community - something along the lines of this:
http://www.onecountry.org/e193/e19308as_Iran_new_tactics_and_support.html

Andrew

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

If I had found a news source that
contradicted these (I didn't and neither have you), I would have
included it.

Yes, I have.

As I'm sure you are aware, there is a difference between assertion and
proof or evidence.

And both have been met. If you have a problen with the evidence put in
front of you, interrogate it and its contents. Asserting, as you have,
that a standard has not been met without actually interrogating a
piece of the actual contents of the standard is precisely what you're
accusing me of here. But it is also a common Bahaim tactic of switch
and bait.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
As everyone reading this is no doubt  aware, if you
had proof, you would have provided it by now.

And it has been provided, so kindly take your head out, and address
it.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
That doesn't follow at all.

It does per what Montazeri actually says. And if you actually read and
interrogate the _content_ of what he says, that is precisely what it
says.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Saying Baha'is are citizens and citizens
have certain rights doesn not in any way imply that those rights are
only available to Baha'is or that Bahaism is recognised as a religion.

Absolutely it does follow. Bahaism is not a recognized creed in Iran.
However there are Iranian citizens who happen to be Bahais. Without
recognizing Bahaism eo ipse or adherence thereunto, Montazeri is
asserting that as citizens qua citizens sans Baha'ism, people's rights
should be protected so long as X (the argument contra Baha'ism qua
Baha'ism).

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Exactly! I think you're trying to make a difference here which doesn't
exist.

It does, both in the original Persian and my translation. Of course
you're always welcome to try your hand at unpacking the missive and
its nuances with your own, more technical translation, if you are
able.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Within Islam there is a consensus that Muslims have certain
rights and people of the book have certain rights.

But Bahais are *not* recognized as people of the Book (ahl al-kitab),
who are according to the Qur'an Jews, Christians and Sabaeans - and in
Iran Jews, Christian and Zoroastrians.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
There is clearly a
debate regarding the rights of people who don't fit into either
category (and Baha'is are the biggest group of these in Iran). Two
positions are possible: 1) they have no rights or 2) they do have
rights. He is arguing (2) - they do have rights.

BS! Montazeri is clearly, unequivocally and explicitly arguing that
citizens have rights under the specified constitutional, religious and
canon law rubric arrangements of the Islamic Republic qua citizens,
not as anything else. The parametres of these rights as protected by
the above ceases EXPLCITLY at the door of Bahaism qua Bahaism, for the
reasons specified by Montazeri. This means, you can be a citizen of
the Islamic Republic and enjoy all rights (even while being a Baha'i),
but not expect those rights within the strict format of Baha'ism qua
Baha'ism. This is almost like the "don't ask, don't tell" policy
regarding homosexuality once operative in the US military. It is a
very clear and specific distinction made by Montazeri regarding
*causality* in law and so informing what aspect(s) of citizenry
protection are operative in the Islamic Republic under the
(assumptive) legal protective barriers already erected. While you
people are deliberately attempting to blur these very distinct
distinctions for your own largely publicity reasons with the Western
media, these are the facts of the matter and the clear and explicit
intent of the missive by Montazeri. You are always, however, welcome
to raise the matter directly once again with Ayatollah Montazeri
himself. I am sure your internet committee has more than one native
Persian who can cobble two or three coherent sentences together.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
I see. Thank you for admitting that Ayatollah Montazeri has never
accused the Baha'is of forging the fatwa as you originally claimed.

Umm, excuse me, how does that do that exactly, again? And precisely
how do you jump to the conclusion that Montazeri's missive is even a
*fatwa*? These are assertions you Bahais have made to the Western
media, and not the originary intention of the matter by Montazeri
himself.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
It's not really what Wikipedia would call a "reliable source".

Wikipedia itself, as is being increasingly acknowledged, has zero
credibility in any deemed standards of reliability:
http://www.aetherometry.com/Electronic_Publications/Politics_of_Scien.


W

[PaulHammond]

<snipped>

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
That doesn't follow at all.

It does per what Montazeri actually says. And if you actually read and
interrogate the _content_ of what he says, that is precisely what it
says.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Saying Baha'is are citizens and citizens
have certain rights doesn not in any way imply that those rights are
only available to Baha'is or that Bahaism is recognised as a religion.

Absolutely it does follow. Bahaism is not a recognized creed in Iran.
However there are Iranian citizens who happen to be Bahais. Without
recognizing Bahaism eo ipse or adherence thereunto, Montazeri is
asserting that as citizens qua citizens sans Baha'ism, people's rights
should be protected so long as X (the argument contra Baha'ism qua
Baha'ism).

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Exactly! I think you're trying to make a difference here which doesn't
exist.

It does, both in the original Persian and my translation. Of course
you're always welcome to try your hand at unpacking the missive and
its nuances with your own, more technical translation, if you are
able.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Within Islam there is a consensus that Muslims have certain
rights and people of the book have certain rights.

But Bahais are *not* recognized as people of the Book (ahl al-kitab),
who are according to the Qur'an Jews, Christians and Sabaeans - and in
Iran Jews, Christian and Zoroastrians.

It's clear that this point is ALREADY well understood by Andrew, since
his previous post contains the following:

"Two
positions are possible: 1) they have no rights or 2) they do have
rights. He is arguing (2) - they do have rights. Of course his
argument applies equally to other religions in this position such as
Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists etc - that is not denied. "

Now, either YOU think that Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans and Buddhists are
people of the book, or you think that Andrew is making such a basic
mistake, or you simply didn't read this part of Andrew's previous
post.

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

Post by PaulHammond
It's clear that this point is ALREADY well understood by Andrew,

No, it's not.

Post by PaulHammond
"Two
positions are possible: 1) they have no rights or 2) they do have
rights. He is arguing (2) - they do have rights.

The position I articulated is a different position than IT committee
Andrew's and far more legally nuanced.

Post by PaulHammond
Of course his
argument applies equally to other religions in this position such as
Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists etc - that is not denied. "

A completely irrelevant and fallacious example as there are no
communities of practicing Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans and Buddhists
indigenous to Iran. Montazeri is speaking about rights of citizens and
addressing the status of Bahaim in relation to those citizenry rights,
and whether those rights would apply to them as 1) strictly citizens
or/and 2) Bahais. He unequivocally articulates 1), i.e. Individual
Baha'is have rights so long as these rights are articulated from the
general perspective of the rights of citizenry (secular), and
decidedly not in their capacity of Bahaim (religious). That is, Bahais
and Bahaim are not recognized as equal in right in the capacity of
Bahaim; they are recognized as equal strictly in their capacity as
citizend. And Bahaism is still deemed illegitmate Sikhs, Hindus,
Pagans and Buddhists do not compute anywhere in this equation, and
besides they are even less recognized as 'people of the book' than
Bahaim. Your examples are complete bullshit as are all your arguments.


"First, I do believe, based on Hammond's refusal to say why he is
interested in the Baha'i Faith and his frequent defense of the AO,
that he is probably working for them."


-- Eric Stetson, September 2003



W

[r***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Of course his
argument applies equally to other religions in this position such as
Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists etc - that is not denied. "

A completely irrelevant and fallacious example as there are no
communities of practicing Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans and Buddhists
indigenous to Iran.

A quick search on the internet reveals otherwise: there are about a
million Kurds in
Iran following the "Yarsan" religion - another group that isn't people
of the Book,
about 70,000 Hindus and a few hundred Sikhs.

Presumably Montazeri's comments would apply equally to these groups as
well as to
Baha'is so would be very relevant to them.

Andrew

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Of course his
argument applies equally to other religions in this position such as
Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists etc - that is not denied. "

A completely irrelevant and fallacious example as there are no
communities of practicing Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans and Buddhists
indigenous to Iran.

Searches on the internet are not reliable. Try an official Iranian
census, and better yet, read up on your sociology of Iranian
ethnicities and religions.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
there are about a
million Kurds in
Iran following the "Yarsan" religion -

Yarsan are the Ahl-i-Haqq, a syncretistic and heterodox Islamic
esoteric religion which Deifies 'Ali amongst one of its major sub-
groups. Urban Iranians call them popularly "ALI'ULLAHI" (those who
make Ali into God). In Turkey the Yarsan are the Alevis. Another close
sub-group of the Yarsan are the Yezidis, who are popularly known as
devil worshipers, but who worship the God principle and the Devil
principle equally in the form of Malik Ta'us. Ostad Ali Elahi and the
Elahi family belong to yet another of the branches of this group which
has recently found quite a few adherents in the West. Yarsan, per
their Islamicate religiosity (even if heterodox and antinomian) are
technically *ahl al-kitab* (People of the Book), however whacky and
outside the pale their views are to the orthodox Twelver Shi'a
majority. They were persecuted at the beginning of the revolution but
later - for conveniences sake - the major families and their remaining
heads still left in Kurdistan as well as the mountainous rural parts
of Azerbaijan (including the Urumiyya area) reached an accord with the
Islamic republic and at least, in word, if not in praxis, defined
themselves as *Muslims*. FYI!

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
another group that isn't people
of the Book,
about 70,000 Hindus and a few hundred Sikhs.

None of whom are native Iranians, but rather non-citizen foreign/
migrant workers originally from the Sub-Continent.

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Presumably Montazeri's comments would apply equally to these groups as
well as to
Baha'is so would be very relevant to them.

No, it wouldn't apply, for the reasons specified above.

W

[All Bad]

I had the impression that the vast majority of Kurds are Muslim with a small
minority in Iran puportedly holding to the Yarsani religion along with
Yarsanis of other ethnicities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarsan

- All Bad

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Of course his
argument applies equally to other religions in this position such as
Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists etc - that is not denied. "

A completely irrelevant and fallacious example as there are no
communities of practicing Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans and Buddhists
indigenous to Iran.

A quick search on the internet reveals otherwise: there are about a
million Kurds in
Iran following the "Yarsan" religion - another group that isn't people
of the Book,
about 70,000 Hindus and a few hundred Sikhs.

Presumably Montazeri's comments would apply equally to these groups as
well as to
Baha'is so would be very relevant to them.

Andrew

[383]

Post by All Bad
I had the impression that the vast majority of Kurds are Muslim with a small
minority in Iran puportedly holding to the Yarsani religion along with
Yarsanis of other ethnicities.

Your impression is correct, but you also need to amend your incorrect
view of the Ahl-i-Haqq identifying themselves as an independent
religion. They do not, whatever propaganda your Islamophobic
Washington think-tank masters seem to try to want to make as a
'manufactured' impression.

W

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people#Religionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarsan

Post by All Bad
- All Bad

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah

Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Of course his
argument applies equally to other religions in this position such as
Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans, Buddhists etc - that is not denied. "

A completely irrelevant and fallacious example as there are no
communities of practicing Sikhs, Hindus, Pagans and Buddhists
indigenous to Iran.

A quick search on the internet reveals otherwise: there are about a
million Kurds in
Iran following the "Yarsan" religion - another group that isn't people
of the Book,
about 70,000 Hindus and a few hundred Sikhs.
Presumably Montazeri's comments would apply equally to these groups as
well as to
Baha'is so would be very relevant to them.
Andrew

[r***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah
The position I articulated is a different position than IT committee
Andrew's and far more legally nuanced.

I'm sure I will probably regret asking this question, but what on
earth is the IT committee and why on earth would you think I was a
part (member?) of it?

Andrew

[Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA, Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada, Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the slayer of fecal stained moslems]

This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

[All Bad]

Is the Moose loose?

- All Bad

"Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA, Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada,
Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the slayer of fecal stained moslems"

This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

Post by All Bad
Is the Moose loose?
- All Bad

Ask your masters in Tel Aviv. Interesting that this whacko appears on
que with this little item. Very interesting!

W

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

Not a message by moi.

W

On Jan 21, 5:44 am, "Yaako Warrior from AUZ, Germany, RSA, USA,
Sweden, Hong Kong, Canada, Russia, China, Denmark, UK, .........., the

This message was cancelled from within Mozilla.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

http://www.swans.com/library/art14/barker04.html



25. United Jewish Communities is an organizational member of the Save
Darfur Coalition, and a member of IsraAID -- which was founded in 2001
and describes itself as a "coordinating body of Israeli and Jewish
NGOs (non governmental organizations) and other interested parties
based in Israel that are active in development and relief work and
concerned about global issues ('Tikkun Olam')." In 2002, Henry
Elkaslasi, the head of The Humanitarian Fund of the Kibbutz Movement,
became chair of IsraAID. Elkaslasi presently also serves as the co-
chair of the Israeli Coalition for the Refugees of Darfur and Sudan
(also known as Israel for Darfur). Israel for Darfur is listed as a
campaign of the blogging group, Darfur Awareness, which in turn is a
project of a group called Mideast Youth. This latter group was founded
by Esra'a Al Shafei -- who also cofounded the Middle East Interfaith
Blogger Network -- and in June 2007, she received an award from free-
market Atlas Economic Research Foundation for her Mideast Youth
project. (back)

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

NED
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Endowment_for_Democracy

See also,
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/14804
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6530

&

http://michaeljamesbarker.wordpress.com/

-

"The report was made possible with the funding from the National
Endowment for Democracy (N.E.D.)"

Today we have officially launched this blog to the world. Please fee
free to circulate the blog’s link (http://freeyemenportal.org) to
maximize its publicity.
Find below the press release announcing the launch.
Initiated by Mideast Youth and YemenPortal.net

FreeYemenPortal.org launched to campaign for unblocking
yemenportal.net

Wednesday, April 02, 2008

The anti-website censorship website freeyemenportal.org was officially
launched today by Mideast Youth and YemenPortal.net as part of an
ongoing campaign to free yemenportal.net from a two-month long ban
imposed by the Yemeni government. Furthermore, yemenportal.info was
also activated as a mirror site to circumvent the blockage of the
earlier blocked domains.

The launch of the website coincides with an unprecedented wave of bans
by the Yemeni regime targeting news and opinion websites including
blogs and discussion forums. The blocking of Yemenportal.net and its
alternative domain was protested by many local and international
advocacy organizations including Reporters sans Frontiers, Committee
to Protect Journalists, Article 19, the World Association of
Newspapers plus many others.
The Director of MidEast Youth, Esra’a Al-Shafei said she committed to
assisting the website’s founder and administrator Walid Al-Saqaf in
bringing more pressure on the authorities to unblock the website. “It
is imperative that we defend free speech and free access to
information. The Yemeni authorities have failed to provide adequate
grounds upon which the website has been banned within the country,”
said Al-Shafei.

Al-Saqaf said he is campaigning on many levels to unblock the website,
which is a search engine fetching and indexing news and opinion
content on Yemen from about 1,500 sources. He hoped the new website
launched today will include news updates, information about
alternative domains, circumventing techniques, information on how to
help the campaign, media coverage about the ban plus other relevant
information.

How it started

YemenPortal.net started as part of Al-Saqaf’s master program in Sweden
to analyze the Yemeni cyber sphere and examine the impact of news
websites on democracy. But with more than 300,000 items today, the
website became one of the most content-rich Yemeni online resources.
Between the day it was established in the end of May 2007 and until
the day it was banned, YemenPortal.net maintained an impressive rate
of growth to become one of the most prominent Yemeni websites and
simultaneously, became one of the unique academic-driven projects that
brought pride to the Örebro University’s Global Journalism Department.
However, the website’s growth in terms of visitors and accessibility
in Yemen was halted by governmental intervention when the ministry of
communication in Yemen blocked it from being accessed inside Yemen on
January 19, 2008.

Given his mission to study Yemen’s online media, YemenPortal.net’s
founder hoped the authorities would encourage the project and
facilitate his research. “But what happened shocked me and
disappointed my website’s regular visitors. What is even more ironic
is that for some time, the authorities kept on denying that they
blocked the website despite clear evidence to the contrary. It is
frustrating to see your own government fighting a project that could
have enabled millions of Yemenis the chance to be well-informed.” Al-
Saqaf said.

Al-Shafei of Mideast Youth supported this view by saying that the
website should have been appreciated instead of being targeted because
it presented a wide spectrum of news and opinions from diverse
sources. “Yemen Portal is a vital source of information and should be
rewarded for its exceptional contribution. Instead, the Yemeni
authorities have made it inaccessible. We are here to change that.”
She added that unblocking the website is necessary to prevent the
government from manipulating public opinion by restricting specific
views or news on the Internet from reaching the people.
The fight goes on

The ban of Al-Saqaf’s website triggered a resistance movement led by
YemenPortal.net against the ban of all Yemeni websites. With the
integrated technology of the search engine, Al-Saqaf established a
special proxy to allow Internet users in Yemen to access the banned
websites and also to read contents from more than a dozen banned
sources on one page.

The resistance movement consequences as the authorities went ahead in
banning its website as well. However, a new alternative website was
activated in a record time and its web address was sent out to
thousands of subscribers and readers. About a day after the
alternative website was announced, the personal car of Al-Saqaf in
Sana’a was vandalized by unknown men, prompting Al-Saqaf to close down
the Sana’a office out of fear of other physical attacks that may
materialize.

“If the attack was meant to be a warning message, then it only
emboldened our determination to strengthen our resistance of website
censorship.” Al-Saqaf said. “It also proves that the resistance
efforts is actually working and causing some to take such desperate
measures.”
Al-Saqaf vowed to continue the campaign despite hate emails and online
messages targeting his person and calling for his prosecution
allegedly for republishing material and giving a platform for banned
websites that harms ‘national security and unity’. “I will not allow
my website to become a tool in the hands of the government.” Al-Saqaf
said. “This is why it is important to fight against this unjust ban,
particularly as it contradicts with the freedom of expression, which
is guaranteed by the Yemeni constitution.”
Posted in Main, press releases
No Comments

[Death to Haifan Bahaism]

Post by Sock-Puppet'ullah
For the past two-and-a-half years the following two related
organizations have been repeatedly touted by members of the Haifan
MidEastYouthhttp://www.mideastyouth.com
Muslim Network for Bahai Rightshttp://www.bahairights.org
In 2007 the Persian language section of the BBC (British Broadcasting
Corporation) - the same outfit who in 1978 and 1979 gave an open
microphone to the Ayatollah Khomeini as just prior to the success of
the Islamic revolution  - even ran the following story on the Muslim
Network for Bahai Rights,http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/iran/story/2007/07/070719_si-wkf-bahaied...
I had queried an assortment of Baha'is for a year about the structure
of this organization and who specifically served on its steering board
and got patent misdirecting answers, and links to their sites which
mention nothing. However in 2007, the founder Esra’a al-Shafei from
Bahrain had stated in an interview,
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Esra%27a_Al_Shafei
“Esra’a al-Shafei, a blogger from Bahrain, is the co-founder ofhttp://www.mideastyouth.comand the Middle East Interfaith Blogger
Network. She also runs FreeKareem.org aimed to free a jailed friend
and fellow blogger.”
and
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mideast_Youth
“This is a two-person show, I’m in charge of content management and
the ideas, and my friend Lalith, who runs lazybeelab, is in charge of
design and technical support. He co-owns MidEast Youth and our many
networks. I wouldn’t have come this far without his much needed help,
this is why I put him in charge of executive decisions regarding the
site as well…”
as sourced from here,http://globalvoicesonline.org/2007/04/12/arabeyes-esraa-al-shafei-you...
MidEast Youth was a two-man show as of April 2007. As of January 19
2009 two-persons have now quadrupled into the following staff of
Esra’a Al Shafei (Bahrain) - Director
Kawthar Muhaib (UAE) - Project assistant
Tamara Al-Om (Syria) - Moderator & General Assistant
Omid T. (Iran/USA) - Moderator & Legal Adviser
Tori Egherman (Iran/USA) - Budget manager/General Lifesaver
Mohammad Memarian (Iran) - Translation Services - Farsi
Nadia Ayadi (Tunisia) - French translations
Elisheva Cohen (Israel) - Director of Public Relations
Leah Lublin (Israel) - Interfaith Manager
Siham Ihouline (Morocco) - Occasional project Translatorhttp://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Mideast_Youth
Stay tuned, folks, as we begin to reveal here the various funding,
political and Washington-based PAC (political action committee) big-
lobby connections to several of the people mentioned sitting above on
that board. Especially noteworthy, or amusing, here is how you have
two Israelis and one American Jew whose name is eerily similar to a
certain AIPAC (American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee) coordinating
director serving on the board of a network whose immediate subsidiary
is the organization calling its MUSLIM NETWORK FOR BAHA’I RIGHTS.
Can you say ‘WAG THE DOG’ ?
Wahid