historical indictment against them (100).

[Ruth White]

results of the administration ... an historical indictment against them
(100).


Ruth White. Abdul Baha's Questioned Will and Testament.
Beverly Hills: White, 1946.

"Whether the alleged will of Abdul Baha is authentic or spurious, the
results of the administration of Shoghi Effendi and the National
Spiritual Assembly of Baha'is stand as an historical indictment against
them. [Boldface in original] They no more represent the Bahai Religion
than the bigots of the dark ages of Christianity.

"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation. Shoghi Effendi, and the National Spiritual Assembly of
Baha'is, cannot in this day resort to physical torture to enforce their
will, but they have resorted to mental torture by blackmailing with
excommunication all those who do not comply with their inverted
teachings" (100).
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Ruth%20White.htm

[M_P]

"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False. http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

[seon]

Post by M_P

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False. http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

[M_P]

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

[Jan Drew]

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

Well, well. Mark S Probert is using another email address.

[M_P]

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

Well, well.  Mark S Probert is using another email address.

Pretty crafty of me to be answering to a different name over 11 years
ago, then:

<60bm1n$cip$***@orthanc.reference.com>
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.abortion/msg/8b8b6b9624e263f5

[Mark Probert]

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

Well, well.  Mark S Probert is using another email address

Only the initials aree the same you stupid moron. How many hours a day
to you slither around Usenet looking for me?

The nntp posting host resolves to: lvfw.lakeviewtech.com

Now, leave the B'ahai alone,. They are a peaceful people who are
victimize by people the world over. People like you, who hate Jews
like me.

Path: g2news2.google.com!postnews.google.com!
26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: M_P <***@rocketmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai
Subject: Re: historical indictment against them (100).
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:48:55 -0700 (PDT)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <67cad4f8-00ba-4999-acb6-
***@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>
References: <h4cdsr$21h6$***@adenine.netfront.net> <b5cb219d-8736-4f5d-
b360-***@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
<4a6d58ac$0$9735$***@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.243.30.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1248713335 28359 127.0.0.1 (27 Jul 2009
16:48:55 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups-***@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:48:55 +0000 (UTC)
Complaints-To: groups-***@google.com
Injection-Info: 26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com; posting-
host=208.243.30.2;
posting-account=wm2Z1AkAAAB2UmdCw6rHe7IpPtu9OQNN
User-Agent: G2/1.0
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:
1.9.0.12)
Gecko/2009070611 Firefox/3.0.12,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)

[Happy Oyster]

Post by Jan Drew

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

Well, well. Mark S Probert is using another email address.

Oh, too bad... I had told her to cease and desist her stalking...
*****************************************************************


FAQ about Jan Drew's advertizing for quackery
*********************************************

Part IV

June, 24th., 2004


On 24 Jun 2004 06:03:12 GMT, ***@aol.com (Jan) wrote:
************************

Post by Jan Drew

Post by M_P
Subject: Murderous "helpers"
Date: 6/23/2004 1:35 AM Pacific Standard Time

Andrew/Ilsa is just one of life's failures.His sole purpose in life is to serve
to remind decent folk what decent really means.I guess you could say that his
role creates comfort for many people so thatthey can read what comes up from
the bottom of the cesspool.It is a tough job Andrew has taken on but he
certainly is imminently qualified to wade up to his neck in the wastage of his
own life.
Andrew Kingoff aka ilsa is a known repeated liar and despicable person.
He and Happy have a lot in comon.

That says Jan Drew.


Who is Jan Drew ? Jan Drew is a person who showed up in the net in 1999. Since
then he dumped trash, lies and insults and forgeries into the net. Day for day.
Thousands and thousands of postings filled with lies and hate, and hate and
lies. All for one sole reason : to advertize quackery and charlatanism.


Mark Thorson <***@sonic.net> collected some examples which show the character
of Jan Drew :


Message-ID: <***@sonic.net>

<quote>
Part 1: Jan Drew's Hatred For Jews

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:24:47 GMT

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030203003915.08900.00000405%40mb-mf.aol.com

Perhaps it was some kind of ritual
abuse by someone of the Jewish faith.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20021230161232.23430.00000342%40mb-mw.aol.com

I have no problem with anyone being Jewish,
God has a problem when people deny
that Jesus is the son of God.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20021230003534.02142.00000045%40mb-fn.aol.com

Thank you, and expect to be attacked by
Mark Probert, a jew.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20020620012318.03061.00000738%40mb-bg.aol.com

The only reason I called Andrew a jew boy
is because he posted 10 commmandments and
he doesn't believe in God or the bible.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20020506134413.21486.00007488%40mb-fj.aol.com

And my calling Andrew a jew boy was NOT racists.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20020506012459.00812.00008001%40mb-bg.aol.com

If I had called him, ass clown, idiot, moron,
a lying stack of shit, or told him to F**k off,
that would be A OK,,,,,,,,,,right?

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20020505002125.00763.00008303%40mb-bg.aol.com

What's the big deal? Calling you a jew boy was
exactly because you are a jew. The same as you
calling me a methodist or baptist girl.
It doesn't even come close to all the names
you have called and your constant trash talk.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20020504003536.28298.00007240%40mb-fe.aol.com

Little do you know anything about the
*10 Commandments* Jew Boy.
</quote>



Message-ID: <***@sonic.net>

<quote>
Part 2: Jan Drew's Hatred For Jews

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:26:46 GMT


Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030718213628.28226.00000180%40mb-m24.aol.com

Their are Jews here and there are atheists,
(they are the ones who have told the group) with the
exception of IIena, they have proven themselves
to be liars, deceitful and insulters.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030630184145.13643.00002027%40mb-m11.aol.com

That's because most every atheist and jew here
has INDEED lied. They know it,
yet they cover for each other.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030614013041.10617.00001458%40mb-m15.aol.com

The group here are mostly atheists and jews,
(who falsely believe they are enlightened) and need
to have an argument going, thinking they can boast their
ego. They tell lies, twist what is said, and IMHO
are lead by Satan.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030613000639.06893.00001804%40mb-m19.aol.com

The truth is that most debunkers on MHA
who LIE through their tetth, do nothing
but belittle, and are filled with hate, are atheists or jews.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030612202124.06893.00001784%40mb-m19.aol.com

I repeat:
The debubnker's here are atheist or jews.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030612014151.04369.00001280%40mb-m15.aol.com

No, they aren't right, they are greatly deceived
as Eve was when Satan debunked
God's word.
That was the start of debunking.
Then the jews Jesus's very own people tried
to debunk his words, and even
debunked his miracles whch happened right
before their eyes.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030612011123.04369.00001278%40mb-m15.aol.com

Yes Jesus was a jew, his own people rejected him.
They debunked all his words and works,
and now debunking and lies are second
nature to them. That is how Satan works.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030610213830.23300.00000368%40mb-m26.aol.com

Most of the debunkers are either atheists or Jews.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030324214236.16466.00000249%40mb-mf.aol.com

It seems the Jews here have taken over this ng,
with their vile false accusations and they are all filled
with hate.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030324214236.16466.00000249%40mb-mf.aol.com

It seems to me the Jews here are trying to get even
for the holocaust. When noone here was in any way
involved.
</quote>


Message-ID: <***@sonic.net>

<quoted>
Part 3: Jan Drew's Hatred For Jews

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:27:32 GMT


Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20040224182922.19410.00000351%40mb-m16.aol.com

Indeed, the Jews and atheists on this ng have lied over
and over, as well as posting nasty hateful lying websites
trying to personally trash. That is the facts.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20040223172959.20223.00000244%40mb-m04.aol.com

There is an EXCELLENT example of one hate filled jew
(on this ng).

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20040221204234.20451.00000208%40mb-m28.aol.com

To say the JewS rejected Christ, is NOT anti-semitism,,,
IT IS THE TRUTH.
To say Satan is the king of all liars, and leads those
who practice lying is NOT anti-semitism,,,IT IS THE TRUTH.
To say the Jew on this ng are liars, is NOT anti-semtisim, ,,,
IT IS THE TRUTH AND HAS BEEN PROVEN WITH THEIR OWN WORDS.

Quoting from this ORIGINAL posting from Jan Drew:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20040220213242.12315.00000073%40mb-m02.aol.com

We have seen every single Jew here lie, but it isn't limited
to them.
</quote>



Regards,

Aribert Deckers

[All Bad]

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

AB: It's all good fun until someone is up in smoke.

MP: I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

AB: I'll grant you that the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to allow
the state to eliminate those who were eclesiasticly wrong. However, before
the church asked the Spanish Crown to do their dirty work for them, the did
it themselves w/ the Dominicans and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Porete#Trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#Trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Inquisition

- All Bad

[M_P]

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

AB:  It's all good fun until someone is up in http://youtu.be/gldlyTjXk9A
MP: I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.
AB:  I'll grant you that the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to allow
the state to eliminate those who were eclesiasticly wrong.  However, before
the church asked the Spanish Crown to do their dirty work for them, the did
it themselves w/ the Dominicans and others.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Porete#Trialhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#Trialhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Inquisition
- All Bad

Which part of "anyone" did you not understand?

[All Bad]

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

AB: It's all good fun until someone is up in
http://youtu.be/gldlyTjXk9A
MP: I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.
AB: I'll grant you that the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to
allow
the state to eliminate those who were eclesiasticly wrong. However, before
the church asked the Spanish Crown to do their dirty work for them, the did
it themselves w/ the Dominicans and
others.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Porete#Trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#Trialhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Inquisition
- All Bad

MP: Which part of "anyone" did you not understand?

AB: Ewww, I hear a village out there, crying out for its loss. Since the
church burned more than one dissenter, the condition is met and the question
pertains, was it or was it not a good thing that the church burned those who
disagreed with it?

AB: I'm curious to see if you are capable of answering a yes or no
question, or if you prefer to deny the fact that the Papal Inquisition,
unlike the Spanish Inquistion, had the Domincans and other churchmen, not
the civil police, killing the dissenters directly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Inquisition


- All Bad

[M_P]

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

AB: It's all good fun until someone is up in
http://youtu.be/gldlyTjXk9A
MP: I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.
AB: I'll grant you that the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to
allow
the state to eliminate those who were eclesiasticly wrong. However, before
the church asked the Spanish Crown to do their dirty work for them, the did
it themselves w/ the Dominicans and
others.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Porete#Trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#Trialhttp://en.wikipedia.org...

MP:  Which part of "anyone" did you not understand?
AB: Ewww, I hear a village out there, crying out for its loss.  Since the
church burned more than one dissenter, the condition is met and the question
pertains, was it or was it not a good thing that the church burned those who
disagreed with it?

I don't think you're parsing the original question correctly ... but
my answer to this one is also: no, it was not a good thing.

[seon]

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

AB: It's all good fun until someone is up in smoke.
http://youtu.be/gldlyTjXk9A
MP: I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.
AB: I'll grant you that the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to
allow the state to eliminate those who were eclesiasticly wrong. However,
before the church asked the Spanish Crown to do their dirty work for them,
the did it themselves w/ the Dominicans and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Porete#Trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#Trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Inquisition
- All Bad

What about the Crusades?
I guess the Christian apologist will try to justify them somehow...

[Yap]

Post by seon

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

AB:  It's all good fun until someone is up in smoke.
http://youtu.be/gldlyTjXk9A
MP: I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.
AB:  I'll grant you that the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to
allow the state to eliminate those who were eclesiasticly wrong.  However,
before the church asked the Spanish Crown to do their dirty work for them,
the did it themselves w/ the Dominicans and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Porete#Trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#Trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Inquisition
- All Bad

What about the Crusades?
I guess the Christian apologist will try to justify them somehow...

The Inquisition and Crusades were the very dark side of the
Christianity religion.
Those died from the persecution really had not recourse, simply
because they were dead.
However, current people should understand how evil the organized crime
can be....as well as the non-existence
of any deity to protect the innocent.

But should a god had its hand in it, then the evil deity needs to be
driven out of people's life. Those associated with
it are real trash of humanity.

[seon]

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

[SkyEyes]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Well, I'm not, and while the Inquisition was horrible beyond measure
and absolutely lacking a decent excuse, there actually was a teeny-
tiny bit of reason behind the Crusades. When Mohammad's made-up
religion began, most of what we think of as "the Middle East" was
nominally christian, and there was freedom of travel to and from
Jerusalem and neighboring lands. When the muslims swept through the
area, those who chose not to convert were either put to the sword, or
relegated to being second-class citizens. Most importantly from the
aspect of the Crusades, the muslims stopped free travel and free trade
in the area. The Crusades were an attempt to win back access to
lands, trade, and holy places.

Of course, there's not one iota of excuse for either christianity *or*
islam, they're both primitive fairy tales. But the christians
actually didn't start that fight, for whatever it's worth.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net

[seon]

Post by SkyEyes

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Well, I'm not, and while the Inquisition was horrible beyond measure
and absolutely lacking a decent excuse, there actually was a teeny-
tiny bit of reason behind the Crusades. When Mohammad's made-up
religion began, most of what we think of as "the Middle East" was
nominally christian, and there was freedom of travel to and from
Jerusalem and neighboring lands. When the muslims swept through the
area, those who chose not to convert were either put to the sword, or
relegated to being second-class citizens. Most importantly from the
aspect of the Crusades, the muslims stopped free travel and free trade
in the area. The Crusades were an attempt to win back access to
lands, trade, and holy places.
Of course, there's not one iota of excuse for either christianity *or*
islam, they're both primitive fairy tales. But the christians
actually didn't start that fight, for whatever it's worth.

But there was no reason to slaughter innocent women and children and guess
what, some of them were actually Jewish and Christian. But I guess since
they tolerated Muslims they weren't seen as true Christians by the
terrorists.

Post by SkyEyes
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net

[SkyEyes]

Post by seon

Post by SkyEyes

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Well, I'm not, and while the Inquisition was horrible beyond measure
and absolutely lacking a decent excuse, there actually was a teeny-
tiny bit of reason behind the Crusades.  When Mohammad's made-up
religion began, most of what we think of as "the Middle East" was
nominally christian, and there was freedom of travel to and from
Jerusalem and neighboring lands.  When the muslims swept through the
area, those who chose not to convert were either put to the sword, or
relegated to being second-class citizens.  Most importantly from the
aspect of the Crusades, the muslims stopped free travel and free trade
in the area.  The Crusades were an attempt to win back access to
lands, trade, and holy places.
Of course, there's not one iota of excuse for either christianity *or*
islam, they're both primitive fairy tales.  But the christians
actually didn't start that fight, for whatever it's worth.

But there was no reason to slaughter innocent women and children and guess
what, some of them were actually Jewish and Christian. But I guess since
they tolerated Muslims they weren't seen as true Christians by the
terrorists.

To repeat myself, I agree: the tactics the christians used in the
Crusades were grossly immoral. My point was that there was a *reason*
the christians started the Crusades in the first place.

Brenda

[seon]

Post by SkyEyes

Post by seon

Post by SkyEyes

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply
with
their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with
the
church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Well, I'm not, and while the Inquisition was horrible beyond measure
and absolutely lacking a decent excuse, there actually was a teeny-
tiny bit of reason behind the Crusades. When Mohammad's made-up
religion began, most of what we think of as "the Middle East" was
nominally christian, and there was freedom of travel to and from
Jerusalem and neighboring lands. When the muslims swept through the
area, those who chose not to convert were either put to the sword, or
relegated to being second-class citizens. Most importantly from the
aspect of the Crusades, the muslims stopped free travel and free trade
in the area. The Crusades were an attempt to win back access to
lands, trade, and holy places.
Of course, there's not one iota of excuse for either christianity *or*
islam, they're both primitive fairy tales. But the christians
actually didn't start that fight, for whatever it's worth.

But there was no reason to slaughter innocent women and children and guess
what, some of them were actually Jewish and Christian. But I guess since
they tolerated Muslims they weren't seen as true Christians by the
terrorists.

To repeat myself, I agree: the tactics the christians used in the
Crusades were grossly immoral. My point was that there was a *reason*
the christians started the Crusades in the first place.
Brenda

In that case we can both agree. Weather we agree on the reason or not
however...

[M_P]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

[All Bad]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

MP: Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

AB: It would explain how we've gotten into a discussion of the Church? This
is OT on TRB and ARB.

- All Bad

[M_P]

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

MP: Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?
AB: It would explain how we've gotten into a discussion of the Church?  This
is OT on TRB and ARB.

Tell that to Ruth White, who introduced the subject to those groups.

[seon]

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

But you are apologizing for the brutal crimes of the Catholic church. I'll
bet next your going to say Joan of Arc wasn't burnt at the steak.

[M_P]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply with their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with the church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

But you are apologizing for the brutal crimes of the Catholic church.

What crimes have I "apologized" for?

Post by seon
I'll bet next your going to say Joan of Arc wasn't burnt at the steak.

You'd lose that bet.

[seon]

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply
with
their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with
the
church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

But you are apologizing for the brutal crimes of the Catholic church.

What crimes have I "apologized" for?

By saying the church didn't burn people at the stake. It was their policies
and a book about how witches are supposed to be in league with Satan (I
forget the name) that inspired the mob mentality.

Post by M_P

Post by seon
I'll bet next your going to say Joan of Arc wasn't burnt at the steak.

You'd lose that bet.

[walksalone]

Post by seon
..

Post by M_P

Post by seon
m...

Post by M_P

Post by seon
om...

ps.com...

snip

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon
I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

But you are apologizing for the brutal crimes of the Catholic church.

What crimes have I "apologized" for?

By saying the church didn't burn people at the stake. It was their
policies and a book about how witches are supposed to be in league
with Satan (I forget the name) that inspired the mob mentality.

The church itself did not do the burning. Here is how it worked.

Someone wanted widow Browns farmstead.
They went to the local church, & screamed witch.
The priests captured widow Brown & tortured her until she confessed.
Then & only then did they turn her over to civil authority for burning,
with the blessing of the church.

The book, The Witches Hammer. You want more on this, search for burning
times on the web. that is what they are called by those that do research
on the subject of gods choosen playing god & killing others for fun &
prophet.

BTW, the accuser did not always get the property desired, sometimes it
was awarded to the church.

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon
I'll bet next your going to say Joan of Arc wasn't burnt at the steak.

You'd lose that bet.

Good.

HTH

walksalone who is not as familiar with that era as he should be, but
three years in Nam gave me my fill of human greed & senseless violence
against others.

All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

[M_P]

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

[seon]

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

[M_P]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

[seon]

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?

Nothing, we feel guilty because we are humans. So we invent judgment and
damnation.

Post by M_P

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

Are you serious? Look at Christianity, we are all evil sinners. Not only
that we all have original sin and will pay for something we didn't even do.
The only way we can be forgiven is if we believe some 1st century rabbi was
God in the flesh.

[M_P]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?

Nothing, we feel guilty because we are humans.

Many people, myself most certainly included, have something(s) to feel
guilty about.

Post by seon
So we invent judgment and
damnation.

Post by M_P

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

Are you serious? Look at Christianity, we are all evil sinners. Not only
that we all have original sin and will pay for something we didn't even do.
The only way we can be forgiven is if we believe some 1st century rabbi was
God in the flesh.

So where's the "taking advantage"?

[All Bad]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?

AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God. Guilt is
the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who was a
sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive. That
feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a reflection of
his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in letting them all
die, regardless if there really was anything he could have done to save any
of them.

AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I just
live with God.

- All Bad

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:59:28 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God. Guilt is
the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who was a
sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive. That
feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a reflection of
his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in letting them all
die, regardless if there really was anything he could have done to save any
of them.

what a fucking moron.

This is the real world outside your religion,

Where before you say something so mind-bogglingly and
question-beggingly stupid, you have to demonstrate its existence.

What's wrong with you?

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I just
live with God.

You meant to say you live in your own little deluded fantasy world and
are too stupid to understand others don't.

[All Bad]

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:59:28 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God. Guilt is
the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who was a
sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive. That
feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a reflection of
his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in letting them all
die, regardless if there really was anything he could have done to save any
of them.

what a fucking moron.

All this time and effort practicing celibacy for a few days, and this is
what I get?

Post by Christopher A. Lee
This is the real world outside your religion,
Where before you say something so mind-bogglingly and
question-beggingly stupid, you have to demonstrate its existence.
What's wrong with you?

Nuthin. I'm a currently celibate moron, and I'm happy with it, and when I
get less than happy about it, I'll do something about it.

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I just
live with God.

You meant to say you live in your own little deluded fantasy world and
are too stupid to understand others don't.

I read the internet from time to time to find anti-socially like minded
folks, like you.

- All Bad

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 15:18:32 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:59:28 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God. Guilt is
the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who was a
sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive. That
feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a reflection of
his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in letting them all
die, regardless if there really was anything he could have done to save any
of them.

what a fucking moron.

All this time and effort practicing celibacy for a few days, and this is
what I get?

Who gives a hit?

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee
This is the real world outside your religion,
Where before you say something so mind-bogglingly and
question-beggingly stupid, you have to demonstrate its existence.
What's wrong with you?

Nuthin. I'm a currently celibate moron, and I'm happy with it, and when I
get less than happy about it, I'll do something about it.

Then have a wank. It'll calm you down.

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I just
live with God.

You meant to say you live in your own little deluded fantasy world and
are too stupid to understand others don't.

I read the internet from time to time to find anti-socially like minded
folks, like you.

I'm not the sociopath who rudely and stupidly presumes his pretend
friend to people outside his religion.

Post by All Bad
- All Bad

[All Bad]

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 15:18:32 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:59:28 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God.
Guilt
is
the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who was a
sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive. That
feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a reflection of
his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in letting them all
die, regardless if there really was anything he could have done to save any
of them.

what a fucking moron.

All this time and effort practicing celibacy for a few days, and this is
what I get?

Who gives a hit?

Don't know, beyond you, who cares.

Toodles!

- All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee
This is the real world outside your religion,
Where before you say something so mind-bogglingly and
question-beggingly stupid, you have to demonstrate its existence.
What's wrong with you?

Nuthin. I'm a currently celibate moron, and I'm happy with it, and when I
get less than happy about it, I'll do something about it.

Then have a wank. It'll calm you down.

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I just
live with God.

You meant to say you live in your own little deluded fantasy world and
are too stupid to understand others don't.

I read the internet from time to time to find anti-socially like minded
folks, like you.

I'm not the sociopath who rudely and stupidly presumes his pretend
friend to people outside his religion.

Post by All Bad
- All Bad

[Christopher A. Lee]

On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 14:12:51 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 15:18:32 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:59:28 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God.
Guilt
is
the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who was a
sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive. That
feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a reflection of
his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in letting them all
die, regardless if there really was anything he could have done to save any
of them.

what a fucking moron.

All this time and effort practicing celibacy for a few days, and this is
what I get?

Who gives a hit?

Don't know, beyond you, who cares.

You obviously do, liar.

Or was it some other anonymous moron also calling himself "all bad"
who started this thread by rudely and stupidly presuming his pretend
friend was real?

[seon]

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee
On Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:59:28 -0400, "All Bad"

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God. Guilt is
the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who was a
sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive. That
feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a reflection of
his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in letting them all
die, regardless if there really was anything he could have done to save any
of them.

what a fucking moron.

All this time and effort practicing celibacy for a few days, and this is
what I get?

Post by Christopher A. Lee
This is the real world outside your religion,
Where before you say something so mind-bogglingly and
question-beggingly stupid, you have to demonstrate its existence.
What's wrong with you?

Nuthin. I'm a currently celibate moron, and I'm happy with it, and when I
get less than happy about it, I'll do something about it.

Whoa your celibate by choice? I'm celibate but as soon as I meet the right
girl (ie one who will be with me) that's going to change. Sorry, I'm not
afraid of some old man in the clouds watching my every move anymore. If
there is a higher power (and Christopher I'm not saying there is) the idea
of him watching my every move is kind of creepy.

Post by All Bad

Post by Christopher A. Lee

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I just
live with God.

You meant to say you live in your own little deluded fantasy world and
are too stupid to understand others don't.

I read the internet from time to time to find anti-socially like minded
folks, like you.
- All Bad

[walksalone]

Post by All Bad

Post by seon
..

snip

Post by All Bad

Post by seon
Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God.

Which god, Ahone does not want you, even though he created you &
everything else. What you might call the universes. If you have a god
that wants you, is such a god worthy of adoration. After all, in the
revealed gods of tehj desert ,myths, their god is perfect & would not
need anyone or thing to worship it. OTOH, a god claimant that is based
on the ANE concept of might makes right & a supersized king, well, that
god type would not only crave worship, but fail to exist withput it. &
that is assuming such a god is possible in the first place,

Post by All Bad
Guilt is the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat
veteran who was a sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty
to be alive. That feeling does not mean he actually did anythign

I am aware of the syndrome, "If I had just", an almost automatioc guilt
trip. As you indicate, based on personal feelings & training. For some,
there is no relief this side of death.

Post by All Bad
wrong, it is a reflection of his feelings and training: he let his
comrades down in letting them all die, regardless if there really was
anything he could have done to save any of them.

Usually, there wasn't. Yet the guilt trip remains. Most learn to live
with it.

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin.
I just live with God.

Again, which one?
Here is a very short & incomplete list of gods. Every one just as real
as your version.

A very incomplete list from various sources
Aztec, Canaan, Dravidian, Egypt, Gnostic-christian, maya, Mespotamia,
Misc[all others]

a'akuluujjusi
ai' tojon
aba
abira
adamas
aebhel
afken
agu'gux
ahsonnutli
ahura mazda
ai tojon
akongo
alatangana
allah
amma
amma
amun
ananasi
antu
anu
aondo
apap
aramazd
archonssaboth
arebati
ataa naa nygongmo
aten
atl
atua fafine
atua i raropuka
atum
avalokitesvara
awonawilona
ayi' uru'n toyo,n
baiame
baau
brahma
bulai
bulgang
bumba
cacoch
cagn
cagu
cakra
cacoch
ce acatl
cghene
chiconahuiehecatl
chingichnich
cihuacoatl
chiuke
chnum
chul tatic chites vaneg
cihuacoatl
cihuacoatl quilaztli
cipacctonal
citalatonac
citalicue
coniraya
crow
demiurg
deng
dharma
dxui
dyaus pitar
e alom
e quaholom
ehecatl
eingana
eka
el
elohim
elkunirsa
ellel
emli hin
enki
epimetheus
e'ros
es
fidi mukullu
finuweigh
hachacyum
hapi
hao
Hindu
hiranyagarbha
hun hunapa
hunab ku
hurracan
geus tasan
gitche manitou
gluskap
gucumatz
gulu
hunab ku
ihoioi
iksvaku
il
imana
Ilmatar
imra
ipalnemoani
isten
isten
itzam na
itzam zacal nok
iusaas
izanangi no kami
iznami no kami
jehova
jok
julunggul
juok
ka tyelo
kaia
kalunga
kami musubi no kami
karora
kasisia
ketq skwaye
khadau
ki'i
kitanitowit
kokyan
kolpia
kucumatz
kukulkan
kumarbi
kumokums
kun tu ban pok
kun tu bzan po
kyumbe
kwoth
laima
lesa
leza
libanza
lir
lisa
lodur
lowalangi
madalait
mahatala
makemake
maheo
maito
mal
malamanganga'e
malamangangaifo
manawydan
manitou [manitu]
manohel toehel
manu
marduk
massim
mayon
mawu
mbomba
mbotumbo
mehet weret
mkulumncandi
moma
moobi
mukuru
mula djadi
mulumgu
mungo
na'ininwn
na'pe [na'pa]
nahui ollin
nainuema
nammu
nana buluku [nana, nan nan, nana baruku, na na baraclou, boucalou]
nanabozho [nanabush]
nanahuatl
naeau
narayana
nareu
ne'nenkicex
nediyon
nefertuim
neith [neit]
ngai
ngendei
niamye
nobu
nodens
nohochacyum
ninhursag
nu gua [nu kua, nu wa]
nudimmud
nut
nyambe [nyame]
nzame
nzapa
o kuni nushi no mikoto
obatala
ocelotl
oduduwa [odudua]
ohoroxtotil
olodumare
olorun
omecihuatl
orisa nla
orisania
pachacmac
panao
pah
papa
pemba
perun
pore
prajapati
promethus
prthu
ptah
purusha
qamai'ts
quat
quetzelcatl
quetzacoatl
quiahuti
quootis hooi
raluvimbha
rangi
raven
re [ra]
rigani
rigenmucha
rubanga
ruhganga
rukko
sa
samael
seyon
shomde
shu
sirao
siva
somtus
suku
taka mi mitsubi no kami
tangara
tate
tawa
te aka la roe
te manva roa
te tanga engae
teharonhiawagon
telavelik
tenanto'mni
tenanto'mwan
thareon
thixo
tiamat
tiki
tino taata
tirawa
tlaltchuti
tloque nahauque
tomor
tomwo'get
tonacatecuhtli
tontiuh
toro
tororut
totilma'il
trumual
tsui
tsunigoab
tvastar [tvastri]
uchtsiti
ulgen
umanssi ashi kabi hiko ji no kami
umvelinkwangi
ungud
unkulunkulu
unumbote
unumbotte
uru'n ajy toyo'n
vahguru
vairacocha
venda
vile & ve
visnu
visvakarman
waka
wakataka
wakan tonka
wakonda
weir kumbamba
ya'qhicin
yaldaboth
yaro
yehl [yetl]
yemekonji
yhi
yhwh
yng
yoalechutli
yoalli echecatl
yoskeha
zanahary
zeme mate
zipaltonal

Be advised, everyone of the above gods is created with being a creator
god/goddess.

Post by All Bad
- All Bad

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

Using the revealed gods of the deserts fiollowers thechniques?

you done wrong.
You feel bad.
God can make you feel better.

Condensed version of course, & based on the assumption that though the
question may have been serious to you, it is not in the group I am
responding from.

walksalone who spent to much time on a possible serious inquiry, but what
is time to a cow, when you are the cow?

Is this the rest of the story, or the beginning?

gossip


• noun 1 casual conversation or unsubstantiated reports about other
people. 2 chiefly derogatory a person who likes talking about other
people’s private lives.

• verb (gossiped, gossiping) engage in gossip.

— DERIVATIVES gossiper noun gossipy adjective.

— ORIGIN Old English, originally in the sense "godfather or godmother",
later "a close friend, a person with whom one gossips"; related to SIB.

3. gossip is a very old word, but it has only existed in its modern
pejorative sense of ‘idle talk, rumour’ since the early 19th century.
It's formed on Old English god + sib ‘related’ (compare ‘sibling’), and
originally had positive connotations, referring to a baptismal sponsor or
godparent. From this it came to mean a family friend, especially a
woman's female friend (thus, in one mid-16th century quotation, a woman
‘is to her Gossypes gone to make mery’), and from thence to a woman given
to idle chatter of the sort female friends were alleged to make together.
The rest is, well, history.

[All Bad]

Post by walksalone

Post by All Bad

Post by seon
..

snip

Post by All Bad

Post by seon
Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God.

Which god, Ahone does not want you, even though he created you &
everything else. What you might call the universes. If you have a god
that wants you, is such a god worthy of adoration. After all, in the
revealed gods of tehj desert ,myths, their god is perfect & would not
need anyone or thing to worship it. OTOH, a god claimant that is based
on the ANE concept of might makes right & a supersized king, well, that
god type would not only crave worship, but fail to exist withput it. &
that is assuming such a god is possible in the first place,

Post by All Bad
Guilt is the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat
veteran who was a sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty
to be alive. That feeling does not mean he actually did anythign

I am aware of the syndrome, "If I had just", an almost automatioc guilt
trip. As you indicate, based on personal feelings & training. For some,
there is no relief this side of death.

Post by All Bad
wrong, it is a reflection of his feelings and training: he let his
comrades down in letting them all die, regardless if there really was
anything he could have done to save any of them.

Usually, there wasn't. Yet the guilt trip remains. Most learn to live
with it.

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin.
I just live with God.

Again, which one?
Here is a very short & incomplete list of gods. Every one just as real
as your version.
A very incomplete list from various sources
Aztec, Canaan, Dravidian, Egypt, Gnostic-christian, maya, Mespotamia,
Misc[all others]
a'akuluujjusi
ai' tojon
aba
abira
adamas
aebhel
afken
agu'gux
ahsonnutli
ahura mazda
ai tojon
akongo
alatangana
allah
amma
amma
amun
ananasi
antu
anu
aondo
apap
aramazd
archonssaboth
arebati
ataa naa nygongmo
aten
atl
atua fafine
atua i raropuka
atum
avalokitesvara
awonawilona
ayi' uru'n toyo,n
baiame
baau
brahma
bulai
bulgang
bumba
cacoch
cagn
cagu
cakra
cacoch
ce acatl
cghene
chiconahuiehecatl
chingichnich
cihuacoatl
chiuke
chnum
chul tatic chites vaneg
cihuacoatl
cihuacoatl quilaztli
cipacctonal
citalatonac
citalicue
coniraya
crow
demiurg
deng
dharma
dxui
dyaus pitar
e alom
e quaholom
ehecatl
eingana
eka
el
elohim
elkunirsa
ellel
emli hin
enki
epimetheus
e'ros
es
fidi mukullu
finuweigh
hachacyum
hapi
hao
Hindu
hiranyagarbha
hun hunapa
hunab ku
hurracan
geus tasan
gitche manitou
gluskap
gucumatz
gulu
hunab ku
ihoioi
iksvaku
il
imana
Ilmatar
imra
ipalnemoani
isten
isten
itzam na
itzam zacal nok
iusaas
izanangi no kami
iznami no kami
jehova
jok
julunggul
juok
ka tyelo
kaia
kalunga
kami musubi no kami
karora
kasisia
ketq skwaye
khadau
ki'i
kitanitowit
kokyan
kolpia
kucumatz
kukulkan
kumarbi
kumokums
kun tu ban pok
kun tu bzan po
kyumbe
kwoth
laima
lesa
leza
libanza
lir
lisa
lodur
lowalangi
madalait
mahatala
makemake
maheo
maito
mal
malamanganga'e
malamangangaifo
manawydan
manitou [manitu]
manohel toehel
manu
marduk
massim
mayon
mawu
mbomba
mbotumbo
mehet weret
mkulumncandi
moma
moobi
mukuru
mula djadi
mulumgu
mungo
na'ininwn
na'pe [na'pa]
nahui ollin
nainuema
nammu
nana buluku [nana, nan nan, nana baruku, na na baraclou, boucalou]
nanabozho [nanabush]
nanahuatl
naeau
narayana
nareu
ne'nenkicex
nediyon
nefertuim
neith [neit]
ngai
ngendei
niamye
nobu
nodens
nohochacyum
ninhursag
nu gua [nu kua, nu wa]
nudimmud
nut
nyambe [nyame]
nzame
nzapa
o kuni nushi no mikoto
obatala
ocelotl
oduduwa [odudua]
ohoroxtotil
olodumare
olorun
omecihuatl
orisa nla
orisania
pachacmac
panao
pah
papa
pemba
perun
pore
prajapati
promethus
prthu
ptah
purusha
qamai'ts
quat
quetzelcatl
quetzacoatl
quiahuti
quootis hooi
raluvimbha
rangi
raven
re [ra]
rigani
rigenmucha
rubanga
ruhganga
rukko
sa
samael
seyon
shomde
shu
sirao
siva
somtus
suku
taka mi mitsubi no kami
tangara
tate
tawa
te aka la roe
te manva roa
te tanga engae
teharonhiawagon
telavelik
tenanto'mni
tenanto'mwan
thareon
thixo
tiamat
tiki
tino taata
tirawa
tlaltchuti
tloque nahauque
tomor
tomwo'get
tonacatecuhtli
tontiuh
toro
tororut
totilma'il
trumual
tsui
tsunigoab
tvastar [tvastri]
uchtsiti
ulgen
umanssi ashi kabi hiko ji no kami
umvelinkwangi
ungud
unkulunkulu
unumbote
unumbotte
uru'n ajy toyo'n
vahguru
vairacocha
venda
vile & ve
visnu
visvakarman
waka
wakataka
wakan tonka
wakonda
weir kumbamba
ya'qhicin
yaldaboth
yaro
yehl [yetl]
yemekonji
yhi
yhwh
yng
yoalechutli
yoalli echecatl
yoskeha
zanahary
zeme mate
zipaltonal

What about Naomi?

Wait a minute! You are slighting Flying Spaghetti Monster! He will be most
displeased with you. I pray he does not hurl a garlic clove down your
mouth.

Post by walksalone
Be advised, everyone of the above gods is created with being a creator
god/goddess.

Ah, maybe that is why you neglected Sam I Am?

Seiously though, you don't list just "God". People and cultures can divide
themselves in pretending that the other person's omnipotent, omniscient boss
is _not_ their ooboss. This is an excuse for trouble.

- Still Bad

Post by walksalone

Post by All Bad
- All Bad

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

Using the revealed gods of the deserts fiollowers thechniques?
you done wrong.
You feel bad.
God can make you feel better.
Condensed version of course, & based on the assumption that though the
question may have been serious to you, it is not in the group I am
responding from.
walksalone who spent to much time on a possible serious inquiry, but what
is time to a cow, when you are the cow?
Is this the rest of the story, or the beginning?
gossip
. noun 1 casual conversation or unsubstantiated reports about other
people. 2 chiefly derogatory a person who likes talking about other
people's private lives.
. verb (gossiped, gossiping) engage in gossip.
- DERIVATIVES gossiper noun gossipy adjective.
- ORIGIN Old English, originally in the sense "godfather or godmother",
later "a close friend, a person with whom one gossips"; related to SIB.
3. gossip is a very old word, but it has only existed in its modern
pejorative sense of 'idle talk, rumour' since the early 19th century.
It's formed on Old English god + sib 'related' (compare 'sibling'), and
originally had positive connotations, referring to a baptismal sponsor or
godparent. From this it came to mean a family friend, especially a
woman's female friend (thus, in one mid-16th century quotation, a woman
'is to her Gossypes gone to make mery'), and from thence to a woman given
to idle chatter of the sort female friends were alleged to make together.
The rest is, well, history.

[seon]

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God. Guilt
is the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who was
a sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive. That
feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a reflection
of his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in letting them
all die, regardless if there really was anything he could have done to
save any of them.

That may be your definition. I am talking about when we do something bad we
think we have sinned in the eyes of God. Our view of divine judgment and
eternal damnation takes us away from the higher power. If he or she exists.

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I
just live with God.
- All Bad

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

Look at Christianity. Were all evil sinners who also have original sin to
worry about and if we don't repent from our evil sinful ways we will burn in
a imaginary place called hell.

[All Bad]

Post by seon

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God. Guilt
is the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran who
was a sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be alive.
That feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is a
reflection of his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in
letting them all die, regardless if there really was anything he could
have done to save any of them.

That may be your definition.

I speak for myself, and I suggest you do so yourself.

Post by seon
I am talking about when we do something bad we

Wee oui we?

Post by seon
think we have sinned in the eyes of God. Our view of divine judgment and
eternal damnation takes us away from the higher power. If he or she exists.

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I
just live with God.
- All Bad

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

Look at Christianity. Were all evil sinners who also have original sin to
worry about and if we don't repent from our evil sinful ways we will burn
in a imaginary place called hell.

Pssst, I don't subscribe to the nonsense known as "Original Sin". I suggest
you cancel your subscription as well.

[seon]

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Yeah we feel guilty so we make up sin

MP: If there's no such thing as sin, what do we feel guilty about?
AB: They are unrelated. Sin is the fallacy of being without God.
Guilt is the having done something wrong. My wife knew a combat veteran
who was a sole survivor of a platoon patrol. He felt guilty to be
alive. That feeling does not mean he actually did anythign wrong, it is
a reflection of his feelings and training: he let his comrades down in
letting them all die, regardless if there really was anything he could
have done to save any of them.

That may be your definition.

I speak for myself, and I suggest you do so yourself.

Post by seon
I am talking about when we do something bad we

Wee oui we?

Post by seon
think we have sinned in the eyes of God. Our view of divine judgment and
eternal damnation takes us away from the higher power. If he or she exists.

Post by All Bad
AB: I don't feel guilty. I don't tell everyone I'm saved from sin. I
just live with God.
- All Bad

Post by seon
to separate us from God. If there is a
God. But religions love to take advantage of our guilt trips.

How, exactly?

Look at Christianity. Were all evil sinners who also have original sin to
worry about and if we don't repent from our evil sinful ways we will burn
in a imaginary place called hell.

Pssst, I don't subscribe to the nonsense known as "Original Sin". I
suggest you cancel your subscription as well.

When did I say I do?

[All Bad]

(snip)

Post by seon

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P
How, exactly?

Look at Christianity. Were all evil sinners who also have original sin
to worry about and if we don't repent from our evil sinful ways we will
burn in a imaginary place called hell.

Pssst, I don't subscribe to the nonsense known as "Original Sin". I
suggest you cancel your subscription as well.

When did I say I do?

Somebody just wrote, "Were all evil sinners who also have original sin to".
I was responding to whoever wrote that. I supposed they were assertting a
concern about Original Sin. Maybe that supposition was a mistake on my
part. Maybe you wrote it but did not say it, or did not write it, whatever,
Original Sin asserts that God creates people so they are born in sin. Any
theological assertion that God's creation is imperfect, looks wrong to me.

- All Bad

[seon]

Post by All Bad
(snip)

Post by seon

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P
How, exactly?

Look at Christianity. Were all evil sinners who also have original sin
to worry about and if we don't repent from our evil sinful ways we will
burn in a imaginary place called hell.

Pssst, I don't subscribe to the nonsense known as "Original Sin". I
suggest you cancel your subscription as well.

When did I say I do?

Somebody just wrote, "Were all evil sinners who also have original sin
to". I was responding to whoever wrote that. I supposed they were
assertting a concern about Original Sin. Maybe that supposition was a
mistake on my part. Maybe you wrote it but did not say it, or did not
write it, whatever, Original Sin asserts that God creates people so they
are born in sin. Any theological assertion that God's creation is
imperfect, looks wrong to me.
- All Bad

I said Christianity says that. You need to pay more attention to what people
write. And I thought I had to pay attention.

[All Bad]

Post by seon

Post by All Bad
(snip)

Post by seon

Post by All Bad

Post by seon

Post by M_P
How, exactly?

Look at Christianity. Were all evil sinners who also have original sin
to worry about and if we don't repent from our evil sinful ways we
will burn in a imaginary place called hell.

Pssst, I don't subscribe to the nonsense known as "Original Sin". I
suggest you cancel your subscription as well.

When did I say I do?

Somebody just wrote, "Were all evil sinners who also have original sin
to". I was responding to whoever wrote that. I supposed they were
assertting a concern about Original Sin. Maybe that supposition was a
mistake on my part. Maybe you wrote it but did not say it, or did not
write it, whatever, Original Sin asserts that God creates people so they
are born in sin. Any theological assertion that God's creation is
imperfect, looks wrong to me.
- All Bad

I said Christianity says that. You need to pay more attention to what
people write. And I thought I had to pay attention.

It's the period. Folks are using the period to separate thoughts. "Look at
Christianity." and "Were all evil sinners who also have original sin" is not
the same as "Christians espouse that we are all evil sinners who also have
original sin."

- All Bad

[walksalone]

Post by M_P

Post by walksalone
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

I know of no religion that is ALL about guilt, nor do I know anyone
who doesn't deserve to feel some guilt.

Then you need to disuss your POV with the authoress of the quote, no?
BTW, it says basically, not exclusivly about guilt.

I see no reason to discard the quote, & suspect I won't.
Was there anything else at this time?

walksalone who has often wondered, why people that disagree with quotes,
don't do it with the author.

Lots of people think they're charitable if they give away their old
clothes
and things they don't want. It isn't charity to give away things you want
to get rid of and it isn't a sacrifice to do things you don't mind doing.
-Myrtle Reed, author (1874-1911)

[seon]

Post by walksalone

Post by seon
..

Post by M_P

Post by seon
m...

Post by M_P

Post by seon
om...

ps.com...

snip

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon
I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

But you are apologizing for the brutal crimes of the Catholic church.

What crimes have I "apologized" for?

By saying the church didn't burn people at the stake. It was their
policies and a book about how witches are supposed to be in league
with Satan (I forget the name) that inspired the mob mentality.

The church itself did not do the burning. Here is how it worked.
Someone wanted widow Browns farmstead.
They went to the local church, & screamed witch.
The priests captured widow Brown & tortured her until she confessed.
Then & only then did they turn her over to civil authority for burning,
with the blessing of the church.
The book, The Witches Hammer. You want more on this, search for burning
times on the web. that is what they are called by those that do research
on the subject of gods choosen playing god & killing others for fun &
prophet.
BTW, the accuser did not always get the property desired, sometimes it
was awarded to the church.

Ah well there you go, the church were responsible for the burning times but
it didn't actually do the burning.
What a sad chapter for humanity.

Post by walksalone

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon
I'll bet next your going to say Joan of Arc wasn't burnt at the steak.

You'd lose that bet.

Good.
HTH
walksalone who is not as familiar with that era as he should be, but
three years in Nam gave me my fill of human greed & senseless violence
against others.
All religions are the same: religion is basically guilt, with different
holidays. -Cathy Ladman, comedian, writer, actress (1955- )

[M_P]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got control of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply
with
their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with
the
church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

But you are apologizing for the brutal crimes of the Catholic church.

What crimes have I "apologized" for?

By saying the church didn't burn people at the stake.

I didn't say that; I said it wasn't their practice to burn at the
stake *anyone* who disagreed with them (i.e., they did burn at least
one).

Post by seon
It was their policies
and a book about how witches are supposed to be in league with Satan (I
forget the name) that inspired the mob mentality.

Post by M_P

Post by seon
I'll bet next your going to say Joan of Arc wasn't burnt at the steak.

You'd lose that bet.

[seon]

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got
control
of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply
with
their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with
the
church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it
wasn't
the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

But you are apologizing for the brutal crimes of the Catholic church.

What crimes have I "apologized" for?

By saying the church didn't burn people at the stake.

I didn't say that; I said it wasn't their practice to burn at the
stake *anyone* who disagreed with them (i.e., they did burn at least
one).

No they just allowed mob mentality to do that.

Post by M_P

Post by seon
It was their policies
and a book about how witches are supposed to be in league with Satan (I
forget the name) that inspired the mob mentality.

Post by M_P

Post by seon
I'll bet next your going to say Joan of Arc wasn't burnt at the steak.

You'd lose that bet.

[All Bad]

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by M_P

Post by seon

Post by Ruth White
"We had the dark ages because the bigots of that era got
control
of
Christ's teachings and tortured all those who did not comply
with
their
interpretation.

False.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/what-dark-ages-1460

So you don't think burning anyone at the stake who disagrees with
the
church
is a good thing?

I don't think it's a good thing, and I'm pleased to know it wasn't the
Church's practice.

I see you're a Christian apologist.

Is affixing that label to me sufficient response to what I've posted?

But you are apologizing for the brutal crimes of the Catholic church.

What crimes have I "apologized" for?

By saying the church didn't burn people at the stake.

MP: I didn't say that; I said it wasn't their practice to burn at the
stake *anyone* who disagreed with them (i.e., they did burn at least
one).

AB: I agree that they did not burn at the stake *everyone* who disagreed
with the Church. They certainly did burn some, and they had the state burn
others.

- All Bad

Post by seon
It was their policies
and a book about how witches are supposed to be in league with Satan (I
forget the name) that inspired the mob mentality.

Post by M_P

Post by seon
I'll bet next your going to say Joan of Arc wasn't burnt at the steak.

You'd lose that bet.