The words revelation and manifestation

[g***@hotmail.com]

The word Revelation does not necessarily imply the appearance of one
Manifestation only. In the Revelation of the Greatest Name there have
already been two Manifestations. Consider the following"
The Revelation of the Greatest Name BHA is not yet completed. The Bab
said He was the B of the Greatest Name and the Baha’’u’’llah said He
repesented the B and the H, or in other words the next part of the
Revelation. He said:"He Who now voiceth the Word of God is none other
except the Primal Point Who hath once again been made manifest." Cited
in World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139 ---In the book Selections from
the Writings of E.G. Browne, p. 215, the Bab is cited as referring to
Himself as "the (Letter) Ba which permeates the water of the Letters,
and the Point which stands at the Gate of the two Alifs" The two Alifs
indicate two Manifestations to follow His revelation, according to the
use of those letters indicating unity, or Manifestations of God (used
that way by some Muslims)

I undersand that the possibility of a thrrd Manifestation appearing to
complete the B H and A parts of this Revelation of the Greatest Name
might be upsetting to the two current UHJs in Haifa and Montana, as
well as the three so called guardians and their two successors. Their
assumed authority would vanish.

Something more to think about...Warmest regards, Gio aka John

[N***@bigpond.com]

Dear Giovanni aka John,

You wrote:

“The word Revelation does not necessarily imply the appearance of
one
Manifestation only.”

Of course if you look in the dictionary you will find different
meanings and applications of the word including the one applying to
theology (Revelation= God’s revealing of Himself and of His will to
His creatures.)

A Manifestation of God does not appear without a revelation of God,
so there will not be any Manifestations before the expiration of at
least one thousand years in view of the fact that Baha’u’llah
revealed that:

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the
expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying
imposter. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract
and repudiate such claim.”

You wrote:

“The Revelation of the Greatest Name BHA is not yet completed. The
Bab
said He was the B of the Greatest Name and the Baha’’u’’llah said He
repesented the B and the H, or in other words the next part of the
Revelation. He said: 'He Who now voiceth the Word of God is none other
except the Primal Point Who hath once again been made manifest.' Cited
in World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139 ---In the book Selections from
the Writings of E.G. Browne, p. 215, the Bab is cited as referring to
Himself as 'the (Letter) Ba which permeates the water of the Letters,
and the Point which stands at the Gate of the two Alifs' The two Alifs
indicate two Manifestations to follow His revelation, according to the
use of those letters indicating unity, or Manifestations of God (used
that way by some Muslims)'”

You have mixed up a short quotation from the book WOB and used it
out
of context combined with your own imagination and a quotation from
E.G. Brown.

You have used a quotation from Shoghi Effendi and interpreted it the
very opposite from its true meaning. If you read the whole
paragraph
carefully you will hopefully understand that It does not have the
meaning that you have given it. I will copy it on the skirting for
your attention. Also you should know that the writings of E.G. Brown
are not authoritative and, as they are not a part of the Baha’i
writings, they do not add any value to your claim.

Also you wrote:

“I undersand that the possibility of a thrrd Manifestation appearing
to complete the B H and A parts of this Revelation of the Greatest
Name might be upsetting to the two current UHJs in Haifa and
Montana,
as well as the three so called guardians and their two successors.”

Your effort to undermine the Guardian, the Center of the Cause of
God, does not change the fact; unfortunately you have wrapped your
mind in a web of vain imagination and prejudice from which you
cannot
free your self and become a true Baha’i. The appearance of a third
Manifestation is only in your mind. The only thing that the
Guardian and a true Baha’i regrets in relation to your assertion, is
your deplorable misunderstanding.

You say that you believe in Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l Baha and Shoghi
Effendi but like those who are running the affairs of the bogus UHJ,
you are practically and directly accusing Shoghi Effendi of not
fulfilling his most important obligation: “to appoint in his own
life-
time him that shall become his successor” and of permitting the
World
Order of Baha’u’llah to “be mutilated and permanently deprived of
that hereditary principle” and, in which case, “the integrity of the
Faith would be imperiled, and the stability of the entire fabric
would be gravely endangered. Its prestige would suffer, the means
required to enable it to take a long, an uninterrupted view over a
series of generations would be completely lacking, and the necessary
guidance to define the sphere of the legislative action of its
elected representatives would be totally withdrawn.”


“It would be more correct, and in consonance with the
established principles of Baha’u’llah and the Bab, if instead of
maintaining this fictitious identity with reference to Abdu'l-Baha,
we regard the Forerunner and the Founder of our Faith as identical
in
reality -- a truth which the text of the Suratu'l-Haykal
unmistakably
affirms. 'Had the Primal Point (the Bab) been someone else beside Me
as ye claim,' is Baha’u’llah’s explicit statement, and had attained
My presence, verily He would have never allowed Himself to be
separated from Me, but rather We would have had mutual delights with
each other in My Days.' 'He Who now voiceth the Word of God,'
Bah’u’llah again affirms, 'is none other except the Primal Point Who
hath once again been made manifest.' 'He is,' He thus refers to
Himself in a Tablet addressed to one of the Letters of the Living,
'the same as the One Who appeared in the year sixty (1260 A.H.).
This
verily is one of His mighty signs.' 'Who,' He pleads in the Suriy-i-
Damm, 'will arise to secure the triumph of the Primal Beauty (the
Bab) revealed in the countenance of His succeeding Manifestation?'
Referring to the Revelation proclaimed by the Bab He conversely
characterizes it as 'My own previous Manifestation.'"

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139)


Nosrat

[g***@hotmail.com]

Post by N***@bigpond.com
Dear Giovanni aka John,
“The word Revelation does not necessarily imply the appearance of
one
Manifestation only.”
Of course if you look in the dictionary you will find different
meanings and applications of the word including the one applying to
theology (Revelation= God’s revealing of Himself and of His will to
His creatures.)
A Manifestation of God does not appear without a  revelation of God,
so there will not be any Manifestations before the expiration of at
least one thousand years in view of the fact that Baha’u’llah
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the
expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying
imposter. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract
and repudiate such claim.”
  “The Revelation of the Greatest Name BHA is not yet completed. The
Bab
said He was the B of the Greatest Name and the Baha’’u’’llah said He
repesented the B and the H, or in other words the next part of the
Revelation. He said: 'He Who now voiceth the Word of God is none other
except the Primal Point Who hath once again been made manifest.' Cited
in World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139 ---In the book Selections from
the Writings of E.G. Browne, p. 215, the Bab is cited as referring to
Himself as 'the (Letter) Ba which permeates the water of the Letters,
and the Point which stands at the Gate of the two Alifs' The two Alifs
indicate two Manifestations to follow His revelation, according to the
use of those letters indicating unity, or Manifestations of God (used
that way by some Muslims)'”
You have mixed up a short quotation from the book WOB and used it
out
of context combined with your own imagination and a quotation from
E.G. Brown.
You have used a quotation from Shoghi Effendi and interpreted it the
very opposite from its true  meaning. If you read the whole
paragraph
carefully you will hopefully understand that It does not have the
meaning that you have given it.  I will copy it on the skirting for
your attention. Also you should know that the writings of E.G. Brown
are not authoritative and, as they are not a part of the Baha’i
writings, they do not add any value to your claim.
“I undersand that the possibility of a thrrd Manifestation appearing
to complete the B H and A parts of this Revelation of the Greatest
Name might be upsetting to the two current UHJs in Haifa and
Montana,
as well as the three so called guardians and their two successors.”
  Your effort to undermine the Guardian, the Center of the Cause of
God, does not change the fact; unfortunately you have wrapped your
mind in a web of vain imagination and prejudice from which you
cannot
free your self and become a true Baha’i.  The appearance of a third
Manifestation is only in your mind.  The only thing that the
Guardian and a true Baha’i regrets in relation to your assertion, is
your deplorable misunderstanding.
You say that you believe in Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l Baha and Shoghi
Effendi but like those who are running the affairs of the bogus UHJ,
you are practically and  directly accusing Shoghi Effendi of not
fulfilling his most important obligation: “to appoint in his own
life-
time him that shall become his successor” and of permitting the
World
Order of Baha’u’llah to “be mutilated and permanently deprived of
that hereditary principle” and, in which case, “the integrity of the
Faith would be imperiled, and the stability of the entire fabric
would be gravely endangered. Its prestige would suffer, the means
required to enable it to take a long, an uninterrupted view over a
series of generations would be completely lacking, and the necessary
guidance to define the sphere of the legislative action of its
elected representatives would be totally withdrawn.”
            “It would be more correct, and in consonance with the
established principles of Baha’u’llah and the Bab, if instead of
maintaining this fictitious identity with reference to Abdu'l-Baha,
we regard the Forerunner and the Founder of our Faith as identical
in
reality -- a truth which the text of the Suratu'l-Haykal
unmistakably
affirms. 'Had the Primal Point (the Bab) been someone else beside Me
as ye claim,' is Baha’u’llah’s explicit statement, and had attained
My presence, verily He would have never allowed Himself to be
separated from Me, but rather We would have had mutual delights with
each other in My Days.' 'He Who now voiceth the Word of God,'
Bah’u’llah again affirms, 'is none other except the Primal Point Who
hath once again been made manifest.' 'He is,' He thus refers to
Himself in a Tablet addressed to one of the Letters of the Living,
'the same as the One Who appeared in the year sixty (1260 A.H.).
This
verily is one of His mighty signs.' 'Who,' He pleads in the Suriy-i-
Damm, 'will arise to secure the triumph of the Primal Beauty (the
Bab) revealed in the countenance of His succeeding Manifestation?'
Referring to the Revelation proclaimed by the Bab He conversely
characterizes it as 'My own previous Manifestation.'"
            (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139)
Nosrat

Nosrat: You and Joel have my sympathy and prayers for your future. May
God forgive you.

[N***@bigpond.com]

Post by g***@hotmail.com

Post by N***@bigpond.com
Dear Giovanni aka John,
“The word Revelation does not necessarily imply the appearance of
one
Manifestation only.”
Of course if you look in the dictionary you will find different
meanings and applications of the word including the one applying to
theology (Revelation= God’s revealing of Himself and of His will to
His creatures.)
A Manifestation of God does not appear without a  revelation of God,
so there will not be any Manifestations before the expiration of at
least one thousand years in view of the fact that Baha’u’llah
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the
expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying
imposter. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract
and repudiate such claim.”
  “The Revelation of the Greatest Name BHA is not yet completed. The
Bab
said He was the B of the Greatest Name and the Baha’’u’’llah said He
repesented the B and the H, or in other words the next part of the
Revelation. He said: 'He Who now voiceth the Word of God is none other
except the Primal Point Who hath once again been made manifest.' Cited
in World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139 ---In the book Selections from
the Writings of E.G. Browne, p. 215, the Bab is cited as referring to
Himself as 'the (Letter) Ba which permeates the water of the Letters,
and the Point which stands at the Gate of the two Alifs' The two Alifs
indicate two Manifestations to follow His revelation, according to the
use of those letters indicating unity, or Manifestations of God (used
that way by some Muslims)'”
You have mixed up a short quotation from the book WOB and used it
out
of context combined with your own imagination and a quotation from
E.G. Brown.
You have used a quotation from Shoghi Effendi and interpreted it the
very opposite from its true  meaning. If you read the whole
paragraph
carefully you will hopefully understand that It does not have the
meaning that you have given it.  I will copy it on the skirting for
your attention. Also you should know that the writings of E.G. Brown
are not authoritative and, as they are not a part of the Baha’i
writings, they do not add any value to your claim.
“I undersand that the possibility of a thrrd Manifestation appearing
to complete the B H and A parts of this Revelation of the Greatest
Name might be upsetting to the two current UHJs in Haifa and
Montana,
as well as the three so called guardians and their two successors.”
  Your effort to undermine the Guardian, the Center of the Cause of
God, does not change the fact; unfortunately you have wrapped your
mind in a web of vain imagination and prejudice from which you
cannot
free your self and become a true Baha’i.  The appearance of a third
Manifestation is only in your mind.  The only thing that the
Guardian and a true Baha’i regrets in relation to your assertion, is
your deplorable misunderstanding.
You say that you believe in Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l Baha and Shoghi
Effendi but like those who are running the affairs of the bogus UHJ,
you are practically and  directly accusing Shoghi Effendi of not
fulfilling his most important obligation: “to appoint in his own
life-
time him that shall become his successor” and of permitting the
World
Order of Baha’u’llah to “be mutilated and permanently deprived of
that hereditary principle” and, in which case, “the integrity of the
Faith would be imperiled, and the stability of the entire fabric
would be gravely endangered. Its prestige would suffer, the means
required to enable it to take a long, an uninterrupted view over a
series of generations would be completely lacking, and the necessary
guidance to define the sphere of the legislative action of its
elected representatives would be totally withdrawn.”
            “It would be more correct, and in consonance with the
established principles of Baha’u’llah and the Bab, if instead of
maintaining this fictitious identity with reference to Abdu'l-Baha,
we regard the Forerunner and the Founder of our Faith as identical
in
reality -- a truth which the text of the Suratu'l-Haykal
unmistakably
affirms. 'Had the Primal Point (the Bab) been someone else beside Me
as ye claim,' is Baha’u’llah’s explicit statement, and had attained
My presence, verily He would have never allowed Himself to be
separated from Me, but rather We would have had mutual delights with
each other in My Days.' 'He Who now voiceth the Word of God,'
Bah’u’llah again affirms, 'is none other except the Primal Point Who
hath once again been made manifest.' 'He is,' He thus refers to
Himself in a Tablet addressed to one of the Letters of the Living,
'the same as the One Who appeared in the year sixty (1260 A.H.).
This
verily is one of His mighty signs.' 'Who,' He pleads in the Suriy-i-
Damm, 'will arise to secure the triumph of the Primal Beauty (the
Bab) revealed in the countenance of His succeeding Manifestation?'
Referring to the Revelation proclaimed by the Bab He conversely
characterizes it as 'My own previous Manifestation.'"
            (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139)
Nosrat

Nosrat: You and Joel have my sympathy and prayers for your future. May
God forgive you.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Dear Giovanni (John),

Thank you very much for your prayers as everybody needs prayers. I
believe that in your current situation your first priority is to
repent your obvious mistakes and pray to God to forgive you for what
you have done; i.e., made an unauthorized interpretation of the Word
of Baha’u’llah in a verse in which He especially has warned and
emphasized that:

“Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth
this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the
Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created
things.
Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies.”

And you have disregarded the following words of the Center of the
Covenant:

"As to the most great characteristic of the revelation of
Baha’u’llah
-- a specific teaching not given by any of the Prophets of the past
-- it is the ordination and appointment of the Center of the
Covenant. By this appointment and provision He has safeguarded and
protected the religion of God against differences and schisms,
making
it impossible for any one to create a new sect or faction of belief.
To insure unity and agreement He has entered into a Covenant with
all
the people of the world including the Interpreter and Explainer of
His teachings so that no one may interpret or explain the religion
of
God according to his own view or opinion and thus create a sect
founded upon his individual understanding of the divine words. The
Book of the Covenant or Testament of Baha’u’llah is the means of
preventing such a possibility, for whosoever shall speak from the
authority of himself alone shall be degraded. Be ye informed and
cognizant of this."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha's Section, p.
248)

And while confessing to the importance, sacredness and immutability
of the Will and Testament of Abdu’l-Baha you have practically
declared it null and void and its provisions not enforceable.

And, in effect, you are accusing Shoghi Effendi of not fulfilling
his
most important obligation: “to appoint in his own life- time him
that
shall become his successor.”

And consequently you are clearly disobeying the Guardian of the
Cause
of God.

I pray for you to be guided to the true path.


Nosrat

[Jeffrey]

John,

I have been thinking about the implications of the ideas that you
present, including this statement:

"I understand that the possibility of a third Manifestation appearing
to complete the B H and A parts of this Revelation of the Greatest
Name might be upsetting to the two current UHJs in Haifa and Montana,
as well as the three so called guardians and their two successors.
Their assumed authority would vanish."

It is not true that the mere possibility that the Revelation of the
Greatest Name might not be complete and that a third Manifestation
might appear could be a threat to the authority of the Guardian of the
Orthodox Baha'i Faith. Until this Manifestation actually appears,
there is no threat to anyone's authority. Should this Manifestation
actually appear, it is entirely possible that He or She will not adopt
John Carre's views but might actually uphold Marangella's
Guardianship. But it is true that only a Manifestation would trump the
authority of a Guardian.

Regardless of the opinions and interpretations one might set forth pro
and con, it is certainly possible that God could choose to send
another Manifestation at any time. It would be presumptuous of us,
and a great mistake, to suggest that God's hands are chained up and
that He cannot send a third Manifestation, or that He is powerless to
abrogate or modify the Baha'i Faith. God does as He Wills.

Jeffrey

[Sock-Puppet'ullah]

Post by Jeffrey
Until this Manifestation actually appears,
there is no threat to anyone's authority.

You might wish to reconsider that view.

Post by Jeffrey
Should this Manifestation
actually appear, it is entirely possible that He or She will not adopt
John Carre's views but might actually uphold Marangella's
Guardianship.

Or, consider that He might adopt neither point of view, but instead in
the originary template of His message Return matters instead to the
initial Point (nuqta) from which All-Things (kullu-shay') emerged:
meaning, that He would not uphold the legitimacy of Marangella. He
would neither uphold the legitimacy of Shoghi Effendi, nor of his
grandfather, nor - more importantly - that of his great-grandfather.
Fourteen-hundred some years ago in Mecca when That Manifestation
Appeared, it was not merely the pagan idol worshipers who rejected
That Manifestation and the Message. It was also professed monotheists
in the form of Jews and Christians who also rejected Him, being
amongst the foremost legions of the hypocrites (munafiqin) as the Book
attests. In every Age of Resurrection, the test is the same because
the same dual reality of Negation (la ilaha) and Affirmation (illa
allah) reconstitutes itself as a mirror to the reality of that time,
such as We verily see in this day.

Post by Jeffrey
But it is true that only a Manifestation would trump the
authority of a Guardian.

Indeed, and this Manifestation unequivocally holds to the tout court
illegitimacy of Bahaism completely, demonstrating that it is a counter-
tradition and a subversive tool of the qelipoth to lead the righteous
and god-seeking astray.

Post by Jeffrey
Regardless of the opinions and interpretations one might set forth pro
and con, it is certainly possible that God could choose to send
another Manifestation at any time.

Indeed.

Post by Jeffrey
It would be presumptuous of us,
and a great mistake, to suggest that God's hands are chained up and
that He cannot send a third Manifestation, or that He is powerless to
abrogate or modify the Baha'i Faith. God does as He Wills.

Indeed.

117