"Bob" <***@msn.com> wrote in message news:e77e2a70-8329-4bd2-9900-***@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
BA: There is a great difference between idiomatic expressions, such as to
make straight the pathways, and expressions which are visions of
future events.
AB: You lost me there. The passage about making straight the pathways,
from Isaiah, "Prepare ye the way of the
LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." Of course you are
free to ignore it, free to argue against it, even free to deny your sin
nature which leads you to do these things. You are free to say you are
saved and I am damned, yet the text said to straighten out the road for God
to pass on it. It was an expression of future events and when Jesus did
come to Palestine around 2000 years ago, He was rejected because Elijah had
not come, and other signs had not been fufilled, like this bit of road work.
BA: The failure to recognize those differences has been used by many to
take license with the Word, and to interpret it to fit preconceived
notions.
AB: Yes, we can all see what you are doing. That does not mean that you
have to do it. Again, Peter tells you to let God interpret the scripture
for you by using the Bible. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the
scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old
time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the
Holy Ghost."
The Pharisees of 2000 years ago rejected Jesus because they interpreted the
prophecies to mean the roads would be straight, the hills knocked down, the
valleys filled in, likewise that the sunwould go dark and the moon turn
blood red, SUCH THAT NO ONE COULD MISS THE SIGNS OF THE COMING MESSIAH, _as_
_if_ a thief in the night wakes everyone up to plunder the VCR, or the
silver.
BA: When reading the Bible, one must take care to begin first with the
text as it is written. Any deviation from that text, for example in
AB: I would add that when one is reading to understand prophesies, begin at
the beginning of the Bible, noting both prophecies and fulfillements of
prophecies. Daniel, Ezekiel, Micha, as well as Isaiah, Joel, and other OT
books have numerous prophesies in them. Though a few interpretations are
provided in the OT, such as a day for a year in Ezekiel, Matthew and other
New Testament books point out the fulfillement of the prophecies.
BA: passages clearly defined as parables or symbols, must be well
grounded, and must not lead to such vague or opinionated
interpretations that render the words themselves of no importance.
BA: If we were reading classic poetry, one might endlessly interpret lines
and phrases, because oftentimes, the poet intended the meaning to be
imprecise, leaving wide latitude for endless, individual
interpretations.
AB: The correct hermeutic is one where one identifies parallel prophecies
in both the Old Testament and New Testament, as well as a fulfillement of
the prophcy in the New Testament. For example, The Old Testament says that
Elijah, by name, a prophet from the OT, will return before the great and
terrible day of the Lord. The New Testament says that Jesus will return at
the end of the Age. The OT prophecy is fulfilled by John the Baptist, even
though he was not even named Elijah, and may have denied it. The
interpretation of the NT prophecy is that the returned Jesus will not be
named "Jesus" and might even deny that He is Jesus Christ.
BA: The Bible is not imprecise, and prophecy is not intended for
individual interpretation.
AB: I suggest you stop interpreting it, and rely on the interpretations
that it has already provided.
BA: If one is to contend that the "mountain" being cast into the sea is a
symbol of some sort, then the burden of proof is on him to find
support in the Bible itself, and to show how it is that his chosen
"symbol" is to be preferred above others.
AB: Of course. So, if you say that in prophecy, a mountain being cast into
the see, means that a material (not a spiritual mountain) will be cast into
a material sea, the burden is on you to find such an interpretation for such
a passage in the Bible. The reality is that Christians typically deny not
only Biblical interpretations where physical things such as roads, hills and
valleys, were used as symbols of spiritual things such as direct
identification, the religiously learned, and the religiously unlearned (made
wise by inspiration). Furthermore, Christians typically deny even material
interpretations when it suits them. For example, Isaiah said that a virgin
would bear a boy child as a sign, and Matthew interpreted this as referring
to a material virgin, Mary, and a material Boy Child, Jesus Christ and when
Christians are told that Revelation says that a woman would give birth to a
boy child who would rule the world, they want to cast this as some sort of
symbol for the church, even though this is not at all the interpretation
from the OT to Matthew.
BA: Otherwise, we stick to the words themselves, to tell us what the
meaning is. To do otherwise is to pick and choose according not to
God's meaning, but our own imposition upon His word.
AB: I am trying to warn you against glomming on to the passage as read,
pulling it away from the Bible, and only comparing it to Fox News, CNN, or
your favorite paper, or some Science article. That misses key steps and
you, and others, are set up for the mistakes that the Pharisees made and
which you should know better than to do, because you can see how things
turned out for them.
- All Bad
I agree with you that the prophecies do mean something. I disagree with
you
on what they mean. Biblically, insisting on your private interpretation is
a recipe for disaster, as evidenced by the Pharisees.
Here Isaiah 40 apparently saying that the earth will be flattened before the
Messiah!
"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the
LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall
be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked
shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the
LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth
of the LORD hath spoken it."
Yet Luke 3:2-6 shows that this prophesy refers to John preaching
Just because the prophecy says the earth is flattened or the moon turns to
blood, it does not mean that the earth will turn flat or the moon will turn
to blood. Peter pointed that out. Why must you be heedless?
- All Bad
There is nothing in what I said about The Revelation that is
"private." How else can one read the scriptures except in such a way
that the words, as written, mean something? Baha'i interpretations of
The Rev are so far removed from the text that the text becomes
irrelevant to the interpretation.
The difficulty with understanding The Revelation lies not in any
symbolism or allegory, but rather, with the fact that the visions are
of a future, which visions only recently have been seen to fit the
discovered facts of science, and the developments in society.
To be sure, the visions of a seven-headed dragon seem far fetched, at
first. But they are visions of reality as seen in the world of
spirit, translated into temporal and physical terms. That is why
something like "a mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea,"
must have seemed impossible 150 years ago, but now is clearly a vision
of a future event, described in the best terms available to the
writer. (Google for near earth asteroids!)
Some of the events foretold continue to mystify us, but at the swift
pace of technology and social transformation, we can be assured that
they will unfold in the due course of time.
All that said, the vital importance of The Revelation is to put us on
notice that, no matter how much grain (wealth) we store away, the Lord
may well say to each of us, this very night, your soul may be required
of you.
It puts us on notice that huge cataclysms are "soon" to occur, where
"soon" might mean a few years, or more than a century. But the pace
of events is quickening, as indeed the first "pangs of childbirth" are
already evident in the world.
It warns us to take refuge--- not in the mountains, but in Jesus, the
surest and only refuge we have.
And always this for Baha'is: when you see the first world government
being established, beware. This is most assuredly not to be
celebrated, although for a time it will seem that a utopian order has
blessed the earth. The impostor will seize the world, and not long
after, his empty utopian promises will prove bankrupt, and the very
worst era of history will lure many into Hell.
Look not for the forthcoming world government, but rather, for the one
that follows after it. Only then will "God With Us" rule the world,
and forever.
Post by All BadThere is a passage in Second Peter that reads, "Knowing this first, that no
prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy
came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they
were moved by the Holy Ghost."
With that in mind, prophecies in the Old Testament were interpreted as
fufilled in the Gospel, and this gives us insight into how the
prophecies
of
Revleation might be fulfilled. Unless your interpretations, that the
prophecies be fulfilled literally, are supported by scripture, they are
simply private interpretations, and fallable.
Joel prophesied, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out
my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And
also
upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my
spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and
fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the
moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. And it
shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall
be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as
the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."
Acts 2 says that this prophecy of Joel was fulfilled at Pentacost, when
there were no wonders in the sky, but wonders in heaven and on earth; the
celestial sun did not turn dark. Nor was the lunar moon turned to blood.
Etc.
- All Bad
Of course the Baha'i point of view of The Revelation is preterist,
otherwise, the entire BF collapses.
However, as I always ask of preterists, when was it that Rev 8:8-9 was
fulfilled?
Rev 8:8 ¶ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great
mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part
of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 ¶ And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea,
and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
This fits the description of a meteor impact, assuredly something of a
massively catastrophic nature. Or, one could interpret it to death,
allowing the passage to mean anything, and therefore, to mean nothing.
Likewise, most of The Revelation is thematically about worldwide
cataclysm, natural disasters on a scale unprecedented in recorded
history, even counting such catastrophes as that which ended the
Minoan civilization.
Finally, the Revelation is about closure, culmination, finality. It
is about the ushering in not merely of a new era, but of an eternal
era, one in which every tear is wiped away, where there is no more
suffering, neither death.
We appear to be on the brink of that era. But first there must come
the satanic world empire, its self-destruction, and the rescue of
humanity by Jesus.
The History Channel completely ignores these over-arching themes of
The Revelation.
Post by H***@aol.comPost by BobBaha'i eschatology (end times theology) is utterly incoherent.
I have diagrammed The Book of The Revelation, and found that it makes
perfectly good sense. Recent history has validated it,
Ancient history validated it much better. See the History Channel
Broadcast on the Anti-Christ.- Hide quoted text -
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